What of Xavier's Dream?

[powerpax]

You and I are cursed not to agree on interpretations. Hickman told true that the HoxPoxDox will cause epic loggerheads of opinions.

Cool, but that's not an answer to my question. Outside of Morrison and a handful of good runs weighted down by editorial bias, I feel the X-books were caught in a torpor of mediocrity and grim repetition for most of the last 20 years. (I also thought most of the '90s were shit, but anyway) If you don't feel anything needed to change over recent years that's fine, but many do.

[Londo Bellian]

And they outnumber me, the print run figures say so. I'll still ask questions. I can't help it.

[powerpax]

And they outnumber me, the print run figures say so. I'll still ask questions. I can't help it.

That's fine. Could you answer mine? Who is laughing at the past in HOX? And did the books not need a change?

[Londo Bellian]

The posters on this thread praising that the dream is dead (verbatim), for starters?

BTW, have you played "Persona 5"? One of its theme is about cognition, how one perceives what is around him or what is presented in front of him. My cognition registers to my mind that while change was needed for X-Men, I don't like the overall direction of the HoxPoxDox. It is my "reality" in terms of viewing Hickman's tenure. You and many X-posters hold the "Common Cognition" that Krakoa is appropriate given the current age of desensitized jerkass-ity. I have not had the fortune of discussing with another forum poster who has similar cognition for the HoxPoxDox.

With my dissenting cognition, arguably the common cognition has not become Universal.

[People Of The Earth]

Xaviers dream of human/mutant coexistence isn't dead in Krakoa and if you look carefully thats not what he said. What is dead and gone is the hope that he could freely give mutant gifts (Krakoan medication) in the hope of fostering harmony.



The X-Men are still fighting for for a world of peaceful integration, but from a place of safety for all mutants not just the select few living in a fortress mansion and making the humans earn the gifts they offer. Its a more pragmatic approach but the end goal is still the same. Commercial coexistence is still peaceful coexistence.

The man litteraly said his dream was a lie, so I have no clue how you can say afterward that he and his X-Men are still fighting for it.

[powerpax]

Dude, I know Persona, UC Gundam and everything else you insist on referencing and linking to very, very well. We like most of the same anime. But I don't find any of it relevant to a discussion of X-Men comics or our points of view right now.

My cognition registers to my mind that while change was need for X-Men, I don't like the overall direction of the HoxPoxDox.

That's fine; you can just say that. But I don't find HOX desensitized at all. There is a reason Xavier broke down and said no more - it was because of years of heartache and fear. Now they have pride and hope. Also, posters here critiquing the old dream being out of touch =/= the books laughing at the past.

[Londo Bellian]

And that's the Common Cognition. Oh well; as a single virgin a few years shy of 40, I'm used to the feeling of loneliness.

[Mia]

Martin Luther King Jr regretted his dream a few years later because it was too naively optimistic and not grounded in reality.

I strongly suggest that you read more into what Dr. King was doing. He borrowed heavily from Ghandi's play book in his fight against British colonial rule in India. In being 'peaceful' and allowing racist whites to over react and attack them--and then filmed and broadcast on tv to the rest of the US and the world. It took away the reputation that white southerners were trying to cultivate of being kind and genteel. The non violence would not have worked in other countries which is why the ANC never tried to--or at least abandoned it quickly-in their fight against apartheid in South Africa. Ghandi himself said that he would never have used peaceful means if he was fighting against the Nazi's in Germany. But since he was fighting against the British who saw themselves as sophisticated and polished he could play that card.

That's not exactly what Charles is doing. Sure he can use the X-Men as a PR gimmick. But nothing beyond that.

You can not change the human heart if it does not want to be changed. Not even the Divine can do that. The best Xavier can do--and that's only with some mutants- is have the mutants be contributing members of society. But as anyone has read the X-Men for a long period of time knows there are mutants who will use their for selfish or angry reasons.

What Hickman seems to be doing with this soft re-boot. Is take the original concept of the X-Men being a stand in for the Jewish people and having them form their own nation the same way that Israel was formed after WWII. Israel is the home of the Jewish people, but it also trades with other nations and has it's own domestic problems.

[Mia]

I can't help but get the impression that most that are using the Xavier/MLK allegory truly fail to understand MLK's depth as far as his work and philosophy or they only accept the interpretation of MLK's philosophy that has been heavily whitewashed. I also don't see how people are seeing Charles's speech as depressing. For me, it shows someone that is shouldering the load that is the responsibility for keeping his people safe and after finding out that he has continuously led his people into the metaphoric burning house, has decided to change tactics that are producing results that will last.

Integration is, ultimately, a luxury, not a necessity in the short term. Whether or not coexistence is possible, in the long run, depends if whether or not flatscans learn how to behave and play nice with their mutant and superpowered neighbors.

Not to mention before his death he began to speak out stronger, especially regarding Black unemployment and the conscription of (Blacks) in the Vietnam war. I am all for Mutants taking their lives in their own hand, and not being accommodating to people who mistreat them. What I take issue with is when it they start to take on attitude that if they can't beat their enemy they might as well join them. In being just as exclusive and mean.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Not to mention before his death he began to speak out stronger, especially regarding Black unemployment and the conscription of (Blacks) in the Vietnam war. I am all for Mutants taking their lives in their own hand, and not being accommodating to people who mistreat them. What I take issue with is when it they start to take on attitude that if they can't beat their enemy they might as well join them. In being just as exclusive and mean.

I agree with that; I don't think it actually solves anything as much as it does just perpetuate the same old animosities. Hopefully this is part of the overall narrative, though, and we'll start seeing it addressed and reconciled with old concepts.

[loke13]

And that's the Common Cognition. Oh well; as a single virgin a few years shy of 40, I'm used to the feeling of loneliness.

Uhhh that may be a little TMI lol

[hawkeyefan]

The dream still seems largely to be the goal, to me.

The way that Xavier is approaching that goal is what's changed.

I think that this approach is more nuanced than many readers are used to seeing. I think it's perfectly fine to say "this approach is not to my liking" and leave it at that. Sometimes, we all want stories where there are obvious heroes, and easy choices, and the good guys save the day. That's fine.

The insistence that this approach is somehow counter to what we've previously seen....it seems pretty shallow. It's not "this approach is not to my liking" it's that "this approach is wrong". But really, it's just a deeper look at things. It's taking the simplistic "Xavier Good, Magneto Bad", which is a bit over simplistic anyway (and likely not even the direct allegory that many are saying, but whatever) and ditching that in favor of something that has a bit more to it. Here's the positive stuff from Xavier's side, and here are the negatives. Here's the negative stuff from Magneto, but hey look, there are some positive things too.

For me, as far as allegory goes, using content that allows for more nuance is probably more appropriate for the kind of metaphor they're going for. Race and identity and pride and hate and prejudice and all the things that go along with them.....they're complex. They deserve to be examined in a complex way.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

The dream still seems largely to be the goal, to me.

The way that Xavier is approaching that goal is what's changed.

I think that this approach is more nuanced than many readers are used to seeing. I think it's perfectly fine to say "this approach is not to my liking" and leave it at that. Sometimes, we all want stories where there are obvious heroes, and easy choices, and the good guys save the day. That's fine.

The insistence that this approach is somehow counter to what we've previously seen....it seems pretty shallow. It's not "this approach is not to my liking" it's that "this approach is wrong". But really, it's just a deeper look at things. It's taking the simplistic "Xavier Good, Magneto Bad", which is a bit over simplistic anyway (and likely not even the direct allegory that many are saying, but whatever) and ditching that in favor of something that has a bit more to it. Here's the positive stuff from Xavier's side, and here are the negatives. Here's the negative stuff from Magneto, but hey look, there are some positive things too.

For me, as far as allegory goes, using content that allows for more nuance is probably more appropriate for the kind of metaphor they're going for. Race and identity and pride and hate and prejudice and all the things that go along with them.....they're complex. They deserve to be examined in a complex way.

I respect this!

[The Kid]

The dream still seems largely to be the goal, to me.

The way that Xavier is approaching that goal is what's changed.

I think that this approach is more nuanced than many readers are used to seeing. I think it's perfectly fine to say "this approach is not to my liking" and leave it at that. Sometimes, we all want stories where there are obvious heroes, and easy choices, and the good guys save the day. That's fine.

The insistence that this approach is somehow counter to what we've previously seen....it seems pretty shallow. It's not "this approach is not to my liking" it's that "this approach is wrong". But really, it's just a deeper look at things. It's taking the simplistic "Xavier Good, Magneto Bad", which is a bit over simplistic anyway (and likely not even the direct allegory that many are saying, but whatever) and ditching that in favor of something that has a bit more to it. Here's the positive stuff from Xavier's side, and here are the negatives. Here's the negative stuff from Magneto, but hey look, there are some positive things too.

For me, as far as allegory goes, using content that allows for more nuance is probably more appropriate for the kind of metaphor they're going for. Race and identity and pride and hate and prejudice and all the things that go along with them.....they're complex. They deserve to be examined in a complex way.

Agreed. I think Xavier still (and honestly always will) have his original vision at the core of his belief. I see it even now with Krakoa. In fact, I think there will be problems between him and Moira in the future over his refusal to truly 'break'. I don't think the final point of Hickman's run will be that only one species can survive. That is the message in PoX for now but I don't believe for one second that will be the case in the end. Hickman isn't really that cynical of a writer. In order to defeat the threat of 'post-humanism', the answer won't be something as easy as kill the others before they kill us. I'm not sure what it will be but it honestly won't surprise me at all if some verison of Xavier's original mission proves true in the end. This is just some of my personal speculation though

[sungila]

Hickman's X-Men are living the dream (that's trite but true'ish), lingering in beds, through the dawn, snoozing the alarm, this is a horror book.

If it's meant to be 'sane' or 'moral' or 'ethical' to make hard copies of people as back-ups and reboot them into Gold Balls using the first mutant sacrifice Proteus as fuel and future's "messiah" Hope for power...if a person pulls his 'head' down over his eyes and ears...if he 'has seen the future (Mountain Top) and it's an apocalypse...and if he is building a society against and not through the possibility...um, does this...scare you?

"...we have guided missiles and misguided men..." MLK

The gates Hickman's X-Men use are interactive screens. Obviously our devices right?
The 'idea' of Krakoa is a virtual anywhere place, a board, a platform, facebook.
Identity is a 'profile' - it's posted and pictured and then projected into. It can be difficult being who you've been liked mostly to be. And even when not documenting this moment, or live streaming it...um...what's a trans mode virus again?

If these X-men dream at all, do the X-Men dream of electric peace?

Of savage lands and pirate ships and sci fi books or the movie adaptations, reboots and the becoming of an adjective.

In the longer run and longer runs the X-Men are and sooner or later will be the story of individuals.

I believe X's true power has always been in the singular stories of singular people in a hyper singular society that never was, never could be, never will be, that nobody can save, that nothing can protect...heroes that can't win...winning panel by panel.

I believe, amongst many things, that Krakoa is a mountain, a person and the person walking that mountain.

Hickman's HoX/PoX gives me the chills. I like that feeling of presence, this heightened awareness...sensitivity.
The instrument is a rattling pumpkin full of seeds.
And dead.

But you can shake out the beat.

It's hauntology.
I like it.