Is the current portrayal legitimate or will there be a twist to explain it?

[Micabe]

If nothing needs to be fixed as you say then no one here would suggest such a thing, right?

[Wolverine12]

You gotta stop making this same thread. This is the 4th one with the same basic plot. I'm gonna merge it but if you want to talk about your displeasure with the X-books go back to one of the threads you already made about it.

[Agent Grayson]

I agree with a lot of the points you've raised and overall, I don't like the direction that the franchise has taken during the Krakoan era. I've found a lot to enjoy regardless but it's fine if you haven't. However, where we diverge is that I don't think you can expect something to be erased just because you don't like it. If you really hate it - to the point where you don't even want to discuss it - it's probably better to disengage from it entirely and hope it returns to a state that you're more favourable to. I'm personally hoping that the new status quo post-Fall of X is going to be more to my liking, maybe it will be more to yours too!

[KurtW95]

I agree with a lot of the points you've raised and overall, I don't like the direction that the franchise has taken during the Krakoan era. I've found a lot to enjoy regardless but it's fine if you haven't. However, where we diverge is that I don't think you can expect something to be erased just because you don't like it. If you really hate it - to the point where you don't even want to discuss it - it's probably better to disengage from it entirely and hope it returns to a state that you're more favourable to. I'm personally hoping that the new status quo post-Fall of X is going to be more to my liking, maybe it will be more to yours too!

I have kind of disengaged. But I hate that I have to. X-Men are what got me into comics. And it's maddening watching what's become of them. A lot of other comics have likewise warped, but none so far as X-Men has. And I do feel like I need to be there to make sure people know the history, because there is so much gaslighting going on. And the only hope of returning to what we once knew is getting other people to know it and how great it was. And again, I don't say that from nostalgia. As X-Men comics were already going down this road when I read my first comic. But there are tons of people who don't read the older comics and have supported turning these characters into what they're not supposed to be. I tell people who only know the movies and shows what's happened and they're shocked. It may be popular to like the idea of Krakoa on CBR and the vocal people who have taken ownership of the X-Men fanbase online, but classic X-Men fans and normies aren't down with it. At least normies when they learn about it. And I'm not talking about erasing because I don't like it. It's true that I don't like it. I'm saying that if it is a bad story, a pointless story, or goes against long established character model, breaking characters, then erasing said content is not a destructive act. It's repairing canon. Imagine if AoA was treated as the new status quo and not an event temporarily replacing the main canon. And it lasted a long time. Going back would be very similar. DC screws with their canon all the time. I don't think it's a good idea to do clean reboots like they did with Flashpoint, but wiping much of the past twenty years and keeping what worked in a way One More Day kept the canon but Peter and Mary Jane weren't married. Or how Flashpoint had some pre-Flashpoint stories remain canon. I would take that approach. But not touch canon before the end of Lobdell's run. I actually think a lot of Marvel franchises could benefit from this. Spider-Man has not had any story of value after the Clone Saga. You could most of the canon after that and no one would care. I would keep Kaine becoming an antiheroic figure and Flash becoming Agent Anti-Venom. But the rest is completely needless. Though not nearly as destructive as what has happened to the X-Men. But wide-sweeping retcons that override countless stories happen all the time and no one bats an eye. Because the canon that's wiped away is done so in a manner that it still happened but it was now all lies. And many new readers have not bothered to read the older comics, so they are unbothered. I suppose you could do a bunch of individual retcons, but the cleanest way would be erasing much of the recent canon. The needless and destructive portions.

[Omega Alpha]

Not a week goes by without some poster making a thread about whatever is in the X-books is not REAL X-men, and we should retcon and erase everything to go back to the golden age of the X-men, which coincidentally is the poster's childhood or teenage years.

You gotta stop making this same thread. This is the 4th one with the same basic plot. I'm gonna merge it but if you want to talk about your displeasure with the X-books go back to one of the threads you already made about it.

See? I was right.

[JB]

I think you have to look at the critical consensus of the runs you feel should be erased. Grant Morrison's run is greatly lauded and is still to this day often talked about and referenced. That includes among classic X-Men fans such as myself (and I started reading around Fall of the Mutants.) So I don't think Marvel sees it as pointless or a bad story and would want to erase it. If you didn't like it that's fair but it was a huge success.

Would I want some things from the past to be erased and forgotten? Sure, so I pretend they have been. LOL. But there's been too much success in recent history to turn back the clock and delete it.

[sunofdarkchild]

DC's reboots have usually made things worse. The Batman boards have a substantial discussion right now on how the 2011 reboot ruined Tim Drake to the point he's not salvageable as a character anymore. DC started to ruin him in the early 2000s by gutting everything that made him distinct from the other bat-characters, but he was still a viable and popular character because of his history. The Nu52 threw out the bad Tim stories from 2004-2009, but it also threw out the good stories of 1989-2003 and left him with nothing as a character. Writers who adore Tim have tried to get back to what made him great 20-30 years ago, but it's too late and every attempt falls flat. The problem is that DC had great editors in the 80s and 90s and horrible editors in the last 20 years, and no reboot of the universe can fix that problem.

In my experience with the X-Men comics and my favorite character, good ultimately came from bad. For years I would have loved to go back in time and ensure that Claremont stayed on New Mutants instead of turning the book over to Simonsen so that Magik would not be written out of character, would actually remember the lessons she learned in her miniseries, and would meet her end in one final confrontation with Belasco as Claremont had built up to since Uncanny 160 and her miniseries. At some point I realized that while that would have been far better than what we got in the late 80s and 90s with how her character was written after he left and all those terrible stories involving Amanda Sefton and the soul sword, it would very likely have made her modern stories worse and she'd probably be a worse character today as a result. If she had gotten the final story she deserved, sacrificing herself in a final battle with Belasco and wrapping her arc up in a neat bow, there would have been no point in bringing her back, and they still would have brought her back eventually because by a certain point everyone would have come back. Since her story was left so agonizingly incomplete by the way she died in Inferno, there was an actual story to tell in bringing her back, and her return ended up being the story her death should have been in the first place since she got that long-awaited rematch with Belasco and ultimately destroyed the Elder Gods he served. That set her up for further development. But if her story had been wrapped up with a neat bow instead of left dangling like it actually was, then she would have returned with no story left to tell and nowhere to go, much like how her brother Colossus has been foundering with no direction since he was resurrected about 20 years ago. I'd probably have given up on reading comics altogether if that happened. There are many similar examples in comics of how a bad story is used by a later writer as a springboard for something greater, like the horrible War Games story leading to the amazing Brian Miller Batgirl series.

[KurtW95]

See? I was right.

You weren't. I hadn't created a thread relating to my thoughts on current X-Men in 16 months. And as I said earlier, I am not asking to have them go back to my childhood or teenage years. Unless you count when I was a really little kid, but the time I started reading comics, we are already well into the era I'd get rid of.

I think you have to look at the critical consensus of the runs you feel should be erased. Grant Morrison's run is greatly lauded and is still to this day often talked about and referenced.

I always disliked his run and thought it started a lot of the down spiral of the franchise. He took many characters off model. Made them jerks and immoral people. Was salvaged somewhat in future runs, but the path was set.

Would I want some things from the past to be erased and forgotten? Sure, so I pretend they have been. LOL. But there's been too much success in recent history to turn back the clock and delete it.

Again, far more successful content have had their meaning erased in X-Men comics. And I'm asking to erase the content that erased those. It's an entirely defensive action on behalf of X-Men continuity.

[Doom'nGloom]

This era is certainly different than what came before and I have my fair share of grievances with it that I've voiced in the past from time to time. However I see many people that love this franchise both much more and far longer than I do being totally on board with the current direction and I realize there is nothing inherently wrong with the current direction, I just have my personal problems with it. So nowadays I stopped obsessing over what I don't like and instead just read what I do like. And if there is nothing I do like in the current books? That's fine I have other things to read. On another note, change isn't always bad. Magneto was a Saturday morning cartoon villain before Claremont got ahold of him. He even named his team Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Claremont gave him the tragic backstory and made him the character he is today. Deadpool wasn't the Merc with a Mouth that he is today when he first appeared though Liefeld tells us otherwise. As long as change is accepted my the majority I don't stress over it and just go for the ride.

[Uncanny X-Man]

DC's reboots have usually made things worse. The Batman boards have a substantial discussion right now on how the 2011 reboot ruined Tim Drake to the point he's not salvageable as a character anymore. DC started to ruin him in the early 2000s by gutting everything that made him distinct from the other bat-characters, but he was still a viable and popular character because of his history. The Nu52 threw out the bad Tim stories from 2004-2009, but it also threw out the good stories of 1989-2003 and left him with nothing as a character. Writers who adore Tim have tried to get back to what made him great 20-30 years ago, but it's too late and every attempt falls flat. The problem is that DC had great editors in the 80s and 90s and horrible editors in the last 20 years, and no reboot of the universe can fix that problem.

This about sums up my thoughts on reboots and continuity erasure. If DC's repeated go's at it over the last several decades show anything is that the only way is forward, building on what's been established, ignoring or adjusting established history but without rebooting it.

That's because there will always be writers and editors who cannot let go of the past and will always find ways to bring back previous characters or continuities... and then you get to a point like where DC is at, when you don't even know how a character got their powers anymore, who was part of what teams, whose parents are dead, etc.

Alternatively, if you create a "continuity-free" line, you just need to wait a few years before all sort of monstrous things happen, as creators strive to make it different from the main continuity with dubious results.

The only way doing away with established history works is if you're an extremely small publisher like Valiant, but when you try it with long-established and beloved lores like Marvel and DC, creators and editors will inevitably fall into old traps and tropes.

[Master of Sound]

I think the KRAKOA era, starting with HoX/PoX by Hickman is the best ti happen to the X-Men francize in years.

Don't make me even start about the period right before PoX and HoX, we had a terrible crossover with Age of X-Man and the status before that was miserable. Marvel trying to force the Inhumans on us and trying to make fans dislike X-Men so much, that fans decided to leave the X-books.

Now we have a g=brand new era, with amazing titles like Immortal X-Men and Red X-Men and great mini series like Sabretooth and Hellions.

Many character we did nor see in decades came back and we have a brand new vibe. I am loving it.

There are always people complaining, guess that is also a thing with X-fans, there is always a large (and loud) group who are not as positive as others.

[KurtW95]

Building on characters is different than tearing them down to build them with completely different parts. These current changes are not natural growth or revealing stuff that wasn't there. And I don't care who likes it it. It comes at the expense of who the characters were and should be. I will say that you are going to hear people liking it if you go to places that discuss the current stories. Because many of the people who used to like them have disengaged, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Marvel severely shrunk their audience. And they pretend that isn't the case and competing interests are to blame. But there are countless people who are dying to buy new comics featuring their favorite characters again. But I'm not going to pay five bucks to se my favorite characters acting like villains in badly written stories. And you say that there are people who love it and the old comics. I don't see how that can be because the new mission statement is completely counter to al of what the X-Men are about. If you loved the old stuff, you shouldn't mind them going back to sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them. The ideology the X-Men currently espouse could've been in Magneto's word balloons in the 70s and no one would've questioned it was villainous.

[JB]

DC's reboots have usually made things worse. The Batman boards have a substantial discussion right now on how the 2011 reboot ruined Tim Drake to the point he's not salvageable as a character anymore. DC started to ruin him in the early 2000s by gutting everything that made him distinct from the other bat-characters, but he was still a viable and popular character because of his history. The Nu52 threw out the bad Tim stories from 2004-2009, but it also threw out the good stories of 1989-2003 and left him with nothing as a character. Writers who adore Tim have tried to get back to what made him great 20-30 years ago, but it's too late and every attempt falls flat. The problem is that DC had great editors in the 80s and 90s and horrible editors in the last 20 years, and no reboot of the universe can fix that problem.

This about sums up my thoughts on reboots and continuity erasure. If DC's repeated go's at it over the last several decades show anything is that the only way is forward, building on what's been established, ignoring or adjusting established history but without rebooting it.

That's because there will always be writers and editors who cannot let go of the past and will always find ways to bring back previous characters or continuities... and then you get to a point like where DC is at, when you don't even know how a character got their powers anymore, who was part of what teams, whose parents are dead, etc.

Alternatively, if you create a "continuity-free" line, you just need to wait a few years before all sort of monstrous things happen, as creators strive to make it different from the main continuity with dubious results.

The only way doing away with established history works is if you're an extremely small publisher like Valiant, but when you try it with long-established and beloved lores like Marvel and DC, creators and editors will inevitably fall into old traps and tropes.

Thank you both for this insight. I don't think I would like books I've read and collected for a long time to be rebooted thus making the history of characters I love confusing and convoluted.

Building on characters is different than tearing them down to build them with completely different parts. These current changes are not natural growth or revealing stuff that wasn't there. And I don't care who likes it it. It comes at the expense of who the characters were and should be. I will say that you are going to hear people liking it if you go to places that discuss the current stories. Because many of the people who used to like them have disengaged, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Marvel severely shrunk their audience. And they pretend that isn't the case and competing interests are to blame. But there are countless people who are dying to buy new comics featuring their favorite characters again. But I'm not going to pay five bucks to se my favorite characters acting like villains in badly written stories. And you say that there are people who love it and the old comics. I don't see how that can be because the new mission statement is completely counter to al of what the X-Men are about. If you loved the old stuff, you shouldn't mind them going back to sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them. The ideology the X-Men currently espouse could've been in Magneto's word balloons in the 70s and no one would've questioned it was villainous.

I can promise you that I'm one of many who like the current era and the old books. Many of the posters here reference old stories all the time while still discussing Krakoa. And I see plenty of new readers using Marvel Unlimited to go back and read old stories. I personally think it is natural growth and progression because the world that hated and feared mutants became so hateful and fearful (especially after Decimation) that things began moving down a path that started to look like Days of Future Past. Mutantkind had to figure out ways to respond to that and survive. It seems to me that's where it was always going to go because if humanity stopped hating and fearing mutants then the story as we knew it would have ended.

[Rift]

Because many of the people who used to like them have disengaged, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Marvel severely shrunk their audience. And they pretend that isn't the case and competing interests are to blame. But there are countless people who are dying to buy new comics featuring their favorite characters again. But I'm not going to pay five bucks to se my favorite characters acting like villains in badly written stories.

Couple of questions. I understand going back to the old ways, but wouldn't outright erasing the Krakoa era and fan-favorite stories to cater to former fans, isolate a ton of current fans? Would it be worth chssing away one group of fans, for just the CHANCE that others will come back? And would they be enough to sustain things?

[KurtW95]

But it made the X-Men into hateful separatists. And you could certainly argue that writers have leaned top heavily on the anti-mutant sentiment. As the franchise always was more than just that. But also, removing them from said struggles removes the relatability. Their life on the island is tedious. And also, you can argue that facing what they did could have hardened them and made them open to separatism and hateful attitudes, but the X-Men are heroes. Because they are heroes, they don't let their misfortune turn them evil. There are lots of real people who faced oppression and fought it in a way that didn't turn them hateful and evil. Of course, there were people who turned hateful and separatist. But their actions often fed the dominant hatred. As opposed to effective ways of fighting bigotry. Which was the whole narrative that people give when comparing Charles to Martin Luther King and Magneto to Malcolm X. To be specific, Malcolm X when he was with Elijah Muhammad's NOI, prior to his conversion to Sunni Islam and his subsequent at the hands of NOI members. But we also know that they were created to be completely allegorical and could have anyone who feels like an outcast relating. And showing how strong the X-Men are not to stoop to hatred and separatism themselves. A message that is now lost. But mutantdom is also different from race and religion. As nearly all mutants come from families of non-mutants. And creating an ethnostante which splits everyone from their families is quite cultish and creepy. And as I mentioned earlier, it's a villainous mindset to want mutants to keep going so badly that you inflict it on people who don't want it and cause deaths. Heroes wouldn't do that. Heroes don't view non-powered humans as lesser people.