Is the demise of the Ultimate Universe what led to so much failure?

[Prof. Warren]

With Champions and Miles they are more mediocre than else. Though I thought the former had been cancelled recently. It did get a lot better when Zub took over even though I don’t like a lot of the characters in the book. On the other hand Ahmed’s writing can be decent or terrible but it doesn’t matter to me because I will not purchase a book with his name on it after the atrocious and bigoted sentiments he’s unrepentantly made.

Yep, I figured as much about where your views are coming from.

I'm going to guess that Ahemd didn't say anything bigoted but, through the crazy prism of the internet, you're convinced that he did.

Also with Marauders I can always be convinced I was wrong but the premiere issue had the features characters not acting like heroes or resembling the characterizations that made them famous.

It was a great first issue. Kitty's never been depicted better and there's nothing in it that could be construed as unheroic.

Yes, Kitty are her crew are operating outside the law but so is pretty much every single costumed hero in the MU. They are, after all, vigilantes.

As to the original topic, the demise of the UU has nothing to do with anything in the main Marvel U. It just ran its course.

[Rosebunse]

Was the Ultimate Universe even any good at the end? It just felt depressing.

[KurtW95]

Yep, I figured as much about where your views are coming from.

I'm going to guess that Ahemd didn't say anything bigoted but, through the crazy prism of the internet, you're convinced that he did.

Then you’re guessing incorrectly. Though I have never seen you ever have a big problem with any product Marvel Comics has produced in recent years or a creator currently working for them so I doubt you’d suddenly condemn that.

[Personamanx]

Was the Ultimate Universe even any good at the end? It just felt depressing.

Honestly? While it was rarely happy-go-lucky there were quite a few solid post Ultimatum/Death Of Spider-Man titles. Hickman's Ultimates was more interesting than his mainstream marvel work, and I felt that Humphries' follow up wasn't bad. Spencer, and Wood's X-Men was a solid read, and Ultimate Spider-Man rarely slipped in quality.

Unfortunately the final pre-Secret Wars relaunch just wasn't great. All-New Ultimates, and FF ever managed to find an audience and Miles was starting to become shackled by carrying the entire line.

[Omega Alpha]

The Ultimate Marvel universe wasn't exactly doing that hot. It quickly became as convoluted as 616 in one third of the time.

Yes, and that was due to mostly three reasons:

1- Writers wanting to introduce versions of every major character as soon as possible, never mind it took decades for most of them in the 616. That resulted in too many characters around, but few were truly fleshed out.
2- Choosing writers that were absolutely incompatible for the titles they were in- for example, Ult. X-men's reason of existence was to escape the convoluted 90's continuity and problems, and then Marvel adds to the title Robert Kirkman, a guy who comes saying he's a massive fan of Liefeld and 90's X-men and wanted to recreate everything there- and he starts with Ultimate Cable, who's Wolverine. And of course there's Loeb...
3- Ultimatum, which was the worst creative decision in the history of Marvel and killed fan interest in the line and put it in a corner, destroying long-term viability. Mind you, not that every comic that came after was bad, but the world had been destroyed and most major characters murdered, often in stupid or repugnant ways.

I still think a new UU could work, but only if you had a writer that knows what's doing spearheading the line, like Hickman is with the X-books.

[Prof. Warren]

Then you’re guessing incorrectly.

You stated that you refuse to buy anything Ahemd writes because you claim he made bigoted statements.

I'm guessing he didn't say anything of the sort.

Much more likely that he said something that got distorted through others on the internet and you're going with the distorted version.

Though I have never seen you ever have a big problem with any product Marvel Comics has produced in recent years or a creator currently working for them so I doubt you’d suddenly condemn that.

I would condemn actual bigotry.

[Holt]

"Repulsive and bigoted" lol.

[GrandEleven]

This is patently untrue. They don’t look ridiculous to younger readers.

bell bottoms and popped collars are always in vogue!

[Modamy]

bell bottoms and popped collars are always in vogue!

This right here. When I think of out of date costumes Ironfist instantly comes to mind.

[catbellysqueezer]

Fine then off the top of my head Captain America, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Shuri, Black Panther, Ironheart, Marauders, Fearless, Moon Girl, Runaways, Future Foundation, Squirrel Girl, Gwenpool, Avengers.

And what specifically did you find wrong with them?

[Username taken]

You stated that you refuse to buy anything Ahemd writes because you claim he made bigoted statements.

I'm guessing he didn't say anything of the sort.

Much more likely that he said something that got distorted through others on the internet and you're going with the distorted version.



I would condemn actual bigotry.

Exactly.

There’s been a huge increase in thr amount of explicit bigotry both online and in real life. We even see it in geek circles with the usual crowds constantly complaining about women and minority led entertainment.

These folks don’t condemn these people, they instead go after the likes of Coates who’s work in the past has been critical of racism. It’s an age old tactic of some folks trying to play the victim card when they called out on their bigotry.

[Snoop Dogg]

As we all know, the death of the Ultimate Universe, a line that has no reason to exist without Bendis, Millar, Hickman, and Spencer, was the biggest contributor to climate change.

[skyvolt2000]

And what specifically did you find wrong with them?

They exist.

Because it's funny that (excluding Cap America, Runaways, Fantastic Foundation & Avengers) those are the books and Champions, America & Wasp that seem to be MAGNETS to certain fandoms to throw fits about.


Is this the "bigoted" statement by Ahmed?

hey @KelloggsUS why is literally the only brown corn pop on the whole cereal box the janitor? this is teaching kids racism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-kids-racism/

Is that what he is guilty of? Something MANY are calling out Star Wars on about Finn.

If Kelloggs didn't think anything of it-they wouldn't have changed the boxes.

There is also a historical aspect-being a janitor or variant of that was the only job we as blacks could get. Not to mention during wars where we dug graves, cooked and cleaned for a time. Then came back to only got those same jobs. Ahmed is coming from a historical viewpoint along with his political background of his parents in Detroit.
Guess what he going to see a LOT of things differently.
It's not racist what he said. Because you have to wonder looking around at your job, school, church or whatever-why are the janitors generally POC.

[WebLurker]

You stated that you refuse to buy anything Ahemd writes because you claim he made bigoted statements.

I'm guessing he didn't say anything of the sort.

Much more likely that he said something that got distorted through others on the internet and you're going with the distorted version.



I would condemn actual bigotry.

Yeah, I've seen some of the claims of Ahmed's bigotry; to say the sources aren't credible would be kind to them. Rule of thumb, if someone is making an argument about/against "SJWs," "forced diversity," "identity politics" and the like, they're not worth your time. (Heck, I've found it's best to believe the exact opposite of what troublemakers like that claim; I've found that those things tend to get vindicated more often then not.)

They exist.

Because it's funny that (excluding Cap America, Runaways, Fantastic Foundation & Avengers) those are the books and Champions, America & Wasp that seem to be MAGNETS to certain fandoms to throw fits about.


Is this the "bigoted" statement by Ahmed?



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-kids-racism/

Is that what he is guilty of? Something MANY are calling out Star Wars on about Finn.

If Kelloggs didn't think anything of it-they wouldn't have changed the boxes.

There is also a historical aspect-being a janitor or variant of that was the only job we as blacks could get. Not to mention during wars where we dug graves, cooked and cleaned for a time. Then came back to only got those same jobs. Ahmed is coming from a historical viewpoint along with his political background of his parents in Detroit.
Guess what he going to see a LOT of things differently.
It's not racist what he said. Because you have to wonder looking around at your job, school, church or whatever-why are the janitors generally POC.

I don't think Finn's cadet assignment of sanitation was racist in intent or in actuality -- it was an army cadet assignment in-universe and mostly plot contrivance out of universe -- and I really have trouble understanding how it could possibly teach racism (granted, as a white guy, I have a totally different life experience, so take that into account). So, do I think Ahmed is wrong? Yes, I do. That said, if he did think that way, it's okay that he's willing to say so.

[Rosebunse]

Yes, and that was due to mostly three reasons:

1- Writers wanting to introduce versions of every major character as soon as possible, never mind it took decades for most of them in the 616. That resulted in too many characters around, but few were truly fleshed out.
2- Choosing writers that were absolutely incompatible for the titles they were in- for example, Ult. X-men's reason of existence was to escape the convoluted 90's continuity and problems, and then Marvel adds to the title Robert Kirkman, a guy who comes saying he's a massive fan of Liefeld and 90's X-men and wanted to recreate everything there- and he starts with Ultimate Cable, who's Wolverine. And of course there's Loeb...
3- Ultimatum, which was the worst creative decision in the history of Marvel and killed fan interest in the line and put it in a corner, destroying long-term viability. Mind you, not that every comic that came after was bad, but the world had been destroyed and most major characters murdered, often in stupid or repugnant ways.

I still think a new UU could work, but only if you had a writer that knows what's doing spearheading the line, like Hickman is with the X-books.

Oh, God, Ultimatum...

Like, you know something is bad when it makes The Clone Saga, Shadowland, and Rosenberg's Uncanny X-Men seem like good, practical runs that had absolutely nothing wrong with them at all.

It was just so bad. I mean, Loeb murdered so many characters in the absolute most awful ways anyone can think of. It just feels like Loeb like trying to work through a lot of awful feelings and decided, hey, instead of going to therapy or grief counselling, let's write a comic book!