Is the demise of the Ultimate Universe what led to so much failure?

[U.N. Owen]

I would blame Marvel's modern problems on excessive reliance on events, the decompression of the medium that occurred decades earlier, the popularity of manga, and the decline of print medium as a whole due to the internet making stuff really easy to pirate rather than the Ultimate Universe.

[Snoop Dogg]

One day I'm going to lock myself up in a padded room and a straightjacket and writhe around until I figure out why Ultimatum, a short AU comic with good art that mostly affected the stagnant and bland UXM and UFF books (to their benefit), is hated to such a degree when I can find a dozen more uninteresting and boring Ultimate arcs and a tsunami of more mediocre Marvel material from the late 2000's. Was it the investment in having spent years with those versions of the X-Men? Was Ultimate Janet really just that bitch? (She was <3)

[kilderkin]

Nothing to do with it. The end of the Ultimate Universe, and any perceived lack of success in recent years has to do with two things: The slow, agonizing death of print media, and the fact that it's far easier to get your superhero fix from TV or movies nowadays. The vast majority of superhero fans don't care about the medium the characters they like appear in, they'd be content with YouTube recaps, and the occasional production still. Superhero comics in print priced themselves out of accessibility to ever be the primary medium again, they continue to be published largely as a farming tool for IP, and because they're still somewhat expected to exist. It reminds me of how Playboy is published at a loss because it's expected to exist while the Bunny logo is slapped on everything.

The films have mattered more than the comics for the last decade. Importing Ultimate Universe assets into the main line, and larger lack of focus on the pretense of a shared universe is just an admittance of it. There's still good stuff published. There's still bad stuff published, but a lot of it is just trying to milk quick successes or as a means to promote already successful properties.

Does the viability of print media affect the quality of print media?

Manga does just fine doesn't it?

I've always felt print comics biggest problem was there cost to reward ratio if you will, a novel for twice the price last much longer, floppies and even trades are expensive for what you get time wise as you say, is new digital much cheaper?

[chamber-music]

Was the Ultimate line intended to be a long lasting thing?

For me it seemed like the Ultimate line wasn't really built to last. Certain writers got to experiment with doing a modern alternative version of the traditional 616 characters or introduce new characters in a new continuity but it never really felt like a long term thing.

I think Marvel has plenty of outlets for writers that want to do something different with established characters. There are Marvel Knights, alternative universe stories, out of continuity stories, one shots, ect. Immortal Hulk and Hickman's X-Men are doing something different with established characters to wide acclaim. I don't think writers at Marvel are as creatively hamstrung as much as people like to make out.

[shooshoomanjoe]

IMO, it just means your 'golden age' is over.

[Digifiend]

With Champions and Miles they are more mediocre than else. Though I thought the former had been cancelled recently.

Shuri, Fearless, Moon Girl, all of which you mentioned, have finished as well, and Squirrel Girl, Future Foundation and Ironheart are all ending shortly too. Shuri and Squirrel Girl ended because the writers left, and Fearless was always just a four issue mini. The others are cancelled.

I guess you didn't realise some of those books were no longer being published?

[Killerbee911]

The Ultimate universe was supposed be a fresh take on Marvel without the long confusing continuity in modern setting. And after it became a place with confusing continuity itself it became place where they experiment with innovate and brave takes on characters. The Ultimate Universe wasn't a failure it just run its course. The only failure was Ultimatum which cut off a lot of potential characters, not murdering a bunch of characters that could have extended ultimate universe by couple more years but it was always a finite thing.

Also Marvel was always going to do new takes on stuff. Some fans don't seem to understand that at old fans are actually going to die at some point and it is in a company's best interest to have contingency for new fan base who might favor different things. UU was playground to try new stuff but it is not like Marvel wasn't going to new takes because UU existed.

[Anthony W]

Costumes have nothing to do with story and characterisation, they change because tastes and trends evolve, old readers may develop an affection for a specific costumes but often that would just look ridiculous to younger readers. Also costumes often don’t change completely they are just updated.

Have you seen Hero Academia? Those costumes makes Marvel's look tame.

[charliehustle415]

The Ultimate Marvel Universe began with a cohesive vision; specifically Bendis & Millar but once Millar left and Bendis only focused on Ultimate Spider-Man it kind of fell a apart especially when Loeb was brought in.

[Woozie]

Have you seen Hero Academia? Those costumes makes Marvel's look tame.

And a lot of those costumes get dunked on by the fanbase.

People clown Deku's outfit ALL THE TIME

[Omega Alpha]

One day I'm going to lock myself up in a padded room and a straightjacket and writhe around until I figure out why Ultimatum, a short AU comic with good art that mostly affected the stagnant and bland UXM and UFF books (to their benefit), is hated to such a degree when I can find a dozen more uninteresting and boring Ultimate arcs and a tsunami of more mediocre Marvel material from the late 2000's. Was it the investment in having spent years with those versions of the X-Men? Was Ultimate Janet really just that bitch? (She was <3)

Hickman often talked about PoX and HoX as books that he wanted to write because he wanted to build things, to create new stuff and move the franchise forward. Ultimatum is the exact opposite of that- the sole purpose of the book was to shock and destroy and leave nothing in it's wake, and in that point at least, succeeded. It's something someone that truly hates superheroes, like Garth Ennis, would want to write (but he would do it better). It's a cynical, hateful event that should be used as #1 of all that is wrong with superhero comics.

And to say UXM and UFF benefitted from Ultimatum is like saying the X-men books benefited from the Terrigen non-sense- even if one or another good story was written, it was not because of the event, but despite of it, because of the writers' talent working around the constraints. If there was no Ultimatum, it's quite likely the UU would still be around today, even if not as popular.

[Cowtools]

Fine then off the top of my head Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Shuri, Black Panther, Ironheart, Fearless, Moon Girl, Runaways, Future Foundation, Squirrel Girl, Gwenpool.

What is it about female- PoC- and teen-lead books that people can't just go 'Well I guess this isn't targeted at me' and forget them, but instead they have to insist that these books are destroying Marvel and the whole comics industry?
And when you confront them, they insist that they're not actually sexist or racist because they love [insert Bronze Age minority character here].
From seeing conversations online, it seems like these guys are only okay with women and minority characters when A) they aren't leads of a book, B) their identity status does not factor into their characterisation or stories at all, C) these books aren't marketed to anybody outside of a typical comic-store-going affluent middle-aged white male demographic.

[TheMaker1610]

As many have pointed out by now, the Ultimate Universe started out strong, but Loeb/Ultimatum in just 5 issues destroyed its (by then) 10-year long history, and delivered a killing blow the UU never got to recover from
I mean, it can be argued that the UU storylines in the 1-2 years leading up to Ultimatum were.. lacking? But how someone in its right mind could think that the solution to that was literally murdering (and in such stupid and unrespectful ways) most of that AU main and supporting cast, just for shock-value sake? It just makes no sense at all, for real

Lets quickly analyze how Ultimatum affected each sub-corner of the UU at that time:

UXM:
-Every single X-men (with the exception of Colossus, Bobby, Firestar, Kitty, Storm, Rogue and Jean Grey) ended up dead in the wake of Magneto's attack, and its aftermath
-The Brotherhood lost Magneto himself, Blob, Madrox, and many others.
-The Hellfire Club cast was destroyed, with no survivors (with the exception of Alex Summers).

100 issues worth of storylines and character development for each of them were destroyed in Ultimatum. In a moment they were there, and in the next, they were killed just thrown to the dumpster, just to be forgotten about, as if their lives/stories didnt matter at all (with Wolverine being the exception, I think? Because of his Legacy, James)



UFF:
-Dr. Storm ended up dead
-General Ross, just dissapeared from the Narrative
-Doom was murdered (and then.. he wasnt?!)
-Mole Man was never heard of again, and Namor dissappeared for years after Ultimatum was over
-The Fantastic Four as a team was done for good, with each of them taking on separate ways, with Reed's taking a darker turn..

Ultimates:
-Hank Pym and Janet both ending up dead (with Janet's death being so underserving, and unrespectful for obvious reasons), and never being referenced again, as if they never had existed at all
-Wanda's murder (and Pietro's?) being the catalyst for Ultimatum itself
-The remaining Ultimates being divided in Tony's and Fury's factions, that led to Mark Millar's final Ultimates (or Ultimate Avengers) run, albeit it was a lacking one

Spiderman:
-Went relatively untouched somehow, and its narrative continued as normal, after a 6-month time-skip, but with some notable casualties/repercusion (or lack of thereof?)
-With both Daredevil and Dr. Strange ending up dead, the Ultimate Marvel Knights team/storyline got dropped. Ult. Iron Fist and Moon Knight were never heard of again
-Eddie Brock's storyline was dropped, and he was never heard of again. Same with Silver Sable's.


Altough UU tried to move over from the whole devastation (in- and out-universe) that Ultimatum brought, it really had a difficult time with it, and never quite recovered from the devastating blow it received.
With so many characters dead/missing, heroes and villains alike, there were limited storytelling options to explore, as they had few remaining toys to play it
There were many hits and misses in the years that came after (with The Maker, and Miles Morales being the most successful characters that were born from the rubble), but most of the stories done were.. underwhelming at best (Humphires' Ult. Comics Ultimates run), horrendous at worst (UFF..)

There were small gems like Hickman's Ult. Comics Ultimates run, and Spencer's Ult. Comics X-men Run, that sadly had to end abruptuly, further evidencing the decaying state the UU was at the time
And as much as I really wished the UU-line to recover, and be with us longer, I had to accept that it would inevitaly die, which happened with Secret Wars in 2015

You were great UU, I will remember you fondly, me and many others too

[Mago dos Gatos]

To answer the OP question;no,I dont think the Ultimate Universe ending made the mainline comics worse.
I just wish they didnt worry so much about movie sinergy.

[Holt]

What is it about female- PoC- and teen-lead books that people can't just go 'Well I guess this isn't targeted at me' and forget them, but instead they have to insist that these books are destroying Marvel and the whole comics industry?

Basically: