Is the demise of the Ultimate Universe what led to so much failure?

[skyvolt2000]

What is it about female- PoC- and teen-lead books that people can't just go 'Well I guess this isn't targeted at me' and forget them, but instead they have to insist that these books are destroying Marvel and the whole comics industry?
And when you confront them, they insist that they're not actually sexist or racist because they love [insert Bronze Age minority character here].
From seeing conversations online, it seems like these guys are only okay with women and minority characters when A) they aren't leads of a book, B) their identity status does not factor into their characterisation or stories at all, C) these books aren't marketed to anybody outside of a typical comic-store-going affluent middle-aged white male demographic.

I can top that.....

A guy on Twitter FOLLOWING Disney+ went off on Cap Marvel being a woman and to stop pandering.
Jamal Igle informed him that 3 women have held that title.
Reply was they can do it right with a MAN.

Here is what really got me-he would FIRE his employees if they bought anything with her and is supported by the "At will" employee clause.
Now you got some guts to try that and don't think you won't get sued.

And you forgot to add
D) Because DC/Marvel is a business that does not pander to YOU. Meanwhile when crap is done to what they like-hello harassment of creators & employees.

E) You are OBLIGATED to by that book no matter how bad it treats your favorite (mainly because my favorite is the LEAD and we can't support those POC lead books ELSEWHERE that are NOT trashing POC. Funny Image's Kick Azz is now a black divorce single mother. No one complains about her and she's at issue 20 now)

[Valentis]

616 = Love

Ultimate Universe=Infatuation

[Username taken]

What is it about female- PoC- and teen-lead books that people can't just go 'Well I guess this isn't targeted at me' and forget them, but instead they have to insist that these books are destroying Marvel and the whole comics industry?
And when you confront them, they insist that they're not actually sexist or racist because they love [insert Bronze Age minority character here].
From seeing conversations online, it seems like these guys are only okay with women and minority characters when A) they aren't leads of a book, B) their identity status does not factor into their characterisation or stories at all, C) these books aren't marketed to anybody outside of a typical comic-store-going affluent middle-aged white male demographic.

You've basically summed it up.

My argument has always been if you don't like something, don't buy it.

These guys arguments are "i don't like these comics and they shouldn't exist". It's a worthless, meaningless, soulless position because it's based in classic bigotry directed at minorities and women. I still use Moon Girl as an example because I can't imagine why a middle aged white man will be complaining about Moon Girl of all books.

[catbellysqueezer]

I'm still waiting for someone who thinks Marvel is destroying comics to try and tell me that Immortal Hulk, Venom, Guardians of the Galaxy, Black Cat, etc. are not good comics.

And that's just what I'm reading, there are probably many others that I'm not reading that are just as good.

[jackolover]

Hickman often talked about PoX and HoX as books that he wanted to write because he wanted to build things, to create new stuff and move the franchise forward. Ultimatum is the exact opposite of that- the sole purpose of the book was to shock and destroy and leave nothing in it's wake, and in that point at least, succeeded. It's something someone that truly hates superheroes, like Garth Ennis, would want to write (but he would do it better). It's a cynical, hateful event that should be used as #1 of all that is wrong with superhero comics.

And to say UXM and UFF benefitted from Ultimatum is like saying the X-men books benefited from the Terrigen non-sense- even if one or another good story was written, it was not because of the event, but despite of it, because of the writers' talent working around the constraints. If there was no Ultimatum, it's quite likely the UU would still be around today, even if not as popular.

I just don’t think PoX and HoX are viable, so I think Hickman didn’t make this to last. Who is going to allow a mutant nation to exist if the world is full of bigots trying desperately to kill them, and Magneto it telling everyone, he “supersedes them, get used to it”. This is not a story premise. This is an invitation to genocide again. I must admit Hickman goes to a lot of trouble of using future jump portals to complicate the matter, but you will only intimidate humans at your peril. Someone is just going to kill the Krakoa plants and that’s the end of the portals.

I mean, the new X-Men series starts and Cyclops is so comfortable and positive, it is sickening that he is so naive about Krakoa’s viability, after his history with this type of wishful thinking. He already tried this in Utopia, and that lasted 2 months. The best solution for the mutants is to just hide as best they can. That’s worked fine all this time.

I think HoM was a real opportunity to make all mutants disappear. Find some place like the Moon and just exist there, or, something like the Great Refuge of the Inhumans in the Himalayas. If everybody thinks the mutants died in HOM, nobody will go looking for them.

But, of course, Hickman has to make PoX and HoX unviable, so that mutants have to revert back to their common state afterwards. The mutants never win their statehood - it’s their fate.

[Rosebunse]

I'm still waiting for someone who thinks Marvel is destroying comics to try and tell me that Immortal Hulk, Venom, Guardians of the Galaxy, Black Cat, etc. are not good comics.

And that's just what I'm reading, there are probably many others that I'm not reading that are just as good.

If someone doesn't like Venom right now, I will fight them-with words! Seriously, how can you not like any of these?

[CaptCleghorn]

What is it about female- PoC- and teen-lead books that people can't just go 'Well I guess this isn't targeted at me' and forget them, but instead they have to insist that these books are destroying Marvel and the whole comics industry?
And when you confront them, they insist that they're not actually sexist or racist because they love [insert Bronze Age minority character here].
From seeing conversations online, it seems like these guys are only okay with women and minority characters when A) they aren't leads of a book, B) their identity status does not factor into their characterisation or stories at all, C) these books aren't marketed to anybody outside of a typical comic-store-going affluent middle-aged white male demographic.

I see way too much of this stuff. I can't understand why anyone would actually want Marvel to publish only books they liked and would buy. Who can afford that? Let me see... pay car and home insurance, or buy comics for the month. I like Marvel not publishing too many books I want to buy.

And for the last 50+ years of my buying (or being bought) funny books, there have been books I have not wanted to buy every single month from every single publisher.

[ed2962]

Like a few people have said, the Ult Line pretty much simply ran it's course. It started as fresh modern takes on those classic characters and was popular initially. But gradually, some of the elements that people liked in the UU made their way to the 616. And UU's continuity got pretty convoluted on it's own. We got Ultimatum which was basically a superhero snuff comic that turned off a lot of fans. I think some people had high hopes for the relaunch, but after the first arcs of most of those titles, the line as a whole just ran out of steam. It was clear that Marvel didn't seem to have any clear vision for the Universe, it just seemed like there was no longer any point to it.

I disagree with the idea that we got Riri Williams and Jane-Thor and cartoony art in some 616 titles during "All New All Different" Marvel because guys like Millar and Loeb didn't have a place to do their edgy incest and murder Ult Avengers stories.

[Rosebunse]

Like a few people have said, the Ult Line pretty much simply ran it's course. It started as fresh modern takes on those classic characters and was popular initially. But gradually, some of the elements that people liked in the UU made their way to the 616. And UU's continuity got pretty convoluted on it's own. We got Ultimatum which was basically a superhero snuff comic that turned off a lot of fans. I think some people had high hopes for the relaunch, but after the first arcs of most of those titles, the line as a whole just ran out of steam. It was clear that Marvel didn't seem to have any clear vision for the Universe, it just seemed like there was no longer any point to it.

I disagree with the idea that we got Riri Williams and Jane-Thor and cartoony art in some 616 titles during "All New All Different" Marvel because guys like Millar and Loeb didn't have a place to do their edgy incest and murder Ult Avengers stories.

It's not that I don't like Loeb or Miller, it's that...well, they can both do more than that weird edgy stuff. Well, now that I think about it, Miller probably can't, but we know Loeb can't.

But as I've stated, Loeb is the most hit or miss guy ever. And it just feels like he made a snuff comic because that is how he needed to work through his very negative emotions following his son's death.

[Prof. Warren]

I just don’t think PoX and HoX are viable, so I think Hickman didn’t make this to last. Who is going to allow a mutant nation to exist if the world is full of bigots trying desperately to kill them, and Magneto it telling everyone, he “supersedes them, get used to it”. This is not a story premise.

"Mutants establishing their own nation and bigots not wanting to let that stand."

THAT IS THE FU*KING STORY!

Hickman's job as a writer isn't to create a world for mutants where they've solved all their problems and finally they can live in peace. Once you do that, what stories are there left to tell?

No, the point is to give them a whole new set of problems to contend with.

This is an invitation to genocide again.

You think? Gee, it's almost like Hickman created a situation where dramatic confrontations between humans and mutants are inevitable. Crazy, right?

It's the kind of situation that will naturally lead to high stake stories rich in conflict and consequences. Kind of what most readers want comics to be about.

[Vordan]

It's not that I don't like Loeb or Miller, it's that...well, they can both do more than that weird edgy stuff. Well, now that I think about it, Miller probably can't, but we know Loeb can't.

But as I've stated, Loeb is the most hit or miss guy ever. And it just feels like he made a snuff comic because that is how he needed to work through his very negative emotions following his son's death.

Mark Millar absolutely can do non edgy stories, he’s toned down the edge ever since MOS shook him up, and done stuff like Huck. Before that he wrote the Superman Adventures book which was a companion to S:TAS and that was great. Red Son is dark but not edgy. Millar just fell prey to the same temptation alternate worlds always offer writers: The chance to be as edgy and murderous as possible because it’s an Elseworld so it’s not the “real” characters and editorial won’t stop you.

[katefan]

With all those other teen books there, I'm surprised you didn't mention Miles Morales and Champions. It's clear you aren't fond of the teen books.

I can understand you mentioning Captain America and Black Panther, there's been complaints that those two books run at a glacial pace.

Marauders is only one issue in, for crying out loud. I don't think a book can be judged by just one issue.

I watched a review regarding Marauders and yeah, you can certainly judge a series by it's first issue. Heroes acting like villains, characters written out of character, not sure how many more issues you need to read to determine that sort of thing might not be for you.

[katefan]

Yes, and that was due to mostly three reasons:

1- Writers wanting to introduce versions of every major character as soon as possible, never mind it took decades for most of them in the 616. That resulted in too many characters around, but few were truly fleshed out.
2- Choosing writers that were absolutely incompatible for the titles they were in- for example, Ult. X-men's reason of existence was to escape the convoluted 90's continuity and problems, and then Marvel adds to the title Robert Kirkman, a guy who comes saying he's a massive fan of Liefeld and 90's X-men and wanted to recreate everything there- and he starts with Ultimate Cable, who's Wolverine. And of course there's Loeb...
3- Ultimatum, which was the worst creative decision in the history of Marvel and killed fan interest in the line and put it in a corner, destroying long-term viability. Mind you, not that every comic that came after was bad, but the world had been destroyed and most major characters murdered, often in stupid or repugnant ways.

I still think a new UU could work, but only if you had a writer that knows what's doing spearheading the line, like Hickman is with the X-books.

Good points. But I would say it is worse than that. Mark Millar is to my mind a terrible writer and his take on The Ultimates was to give us cynical, unlikeable bastards. I also wasn't a fan of Fantastic Four either. On top of that I never liked Bendis' decompressed storytelling style; for example, it took him six issues to tell us Spider Man's origin.

[Prof. Warren]

I watched a review regarding Marauders and yeah, you can certainly judge a series by it's first issue. Heroes acting like villains, characters written out of character, not sure how many more issues you need to read to determine that sort of thing might not be for you.

"I watched a review."

Here's a tip: YouTube comic reviewers are probably not the best way to receive intelligent insight into any issue.

Because someone posts a video claiming that the characters in Marauders are "acting like villains" and being "written out of character" doesn't make it true.

More likely they're a Comicsgater with an ax to grind.

[katefan]

"I watched a review."

Here's a tip: YouTube comic reviewers are probably not the best way to receive intelligent insight into any issue.

Because someone posts a video claiming that the characters in Marauders are "acting like villains" and being "written out of character" doesn't make it true.

More likely they're a Comicsgater with an ax to grind.

Well, I'd share the link with you so you could judge for yourself but likely the powers that be would take it down and suspend me for a while. That being said, the reviewer in question showed pages from the comic. I saw Kitty Pryde stealing a boat, getting drunk, kneecapping a Russian soldier who was just doing his job (which was repelling invaders. The X-Men) and then solidifying a rifle in the legs of two other soldiers, which was pretty horrific.