Is the demise of the Ultimate Universe what led to so much failure?

[Rosebunse]

Doubt it.

Ultimate Universe was officially killed off around Time Runs Out and 616 was going well. Due to Steve, Odinson, Stark, Banner, Logan and others being replaced (I liked x-23 and Captain Falcon), the bad reception of some of the lower tier books (Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, America, etc.) there was a bit of revolt, cancellation of Fantastic Four and Inhumans push at the expense of the X-Men, there was a bit of revolt from fans, drop in quality and event abuse.

I wouldn't call it a "revolt" or anything. I think people just weren't buying some of the books. There were a bunch of weird fans who threw a fit, but those people also turned off other fans because they were so cringey themselves.

[Iron Maiden]

How am I taking Kitty's actions out of context? The Marauders invaded another country, attacked soldiers defending said country, committed horrific acts of violence against people simply doing their job. And I get that they're outlaws, the X-Men have always operated on the fringes of what people consider legal. But this is a level of violence to my knowledge Kitty never displayed before outside of her being possessed by Baron Karza of being under some form of mind control. Does liquor count?

And okay, you read the whole comic. I chose to spend my $3.99 on something else and watch the recap for free.

Bad choice. Don't let someone else's view of the book form your opinion.

[skyvolt2000]

And it really hurts the rest of the fandom, far more than any book actually has. How are we supposed to attract new readers when those people are who they see?

You can't.

Seconded. I've seen very few YouTube reviewers who actually review the stuff in question they talk about, much less have anything meaningful to say about it. While there certainly is a place for being able to say why you didn't like certain things, most of those channels are just endless rationalizations of entitlement issues worthy of a five-year-old and the unintentional humor of seeing people do that clearly thinking that they're presenting some great wisdom gets old really fast.

Most of those folks do NOT buy the books.
Most of those folks who CLAIM to buy the books already have an agenda with them.

You can NOT single out ONE company for doing stuff EVERYBODY does.
Zombie Tramp averages 7-8 variants a month. Her order numbers are Moon Girl level.
If no one wants to read a book starring black folks as leads-Image, Dark Horse, Vault, Aftershock, Scout, Oni Press, Titans, Lion Forge & Book did NOT get the memo.
If no one wants to read a book with LGBTQ leads-IDW's new GI Joe book missed the memo as did Lumberjanes, Fence, Backstagers and a lot more.
Archie is NOT following anyone's childhood. Nor is Titan's Robotech.
How many months is Doomsday Clock at Dc behind?
Who got the WORST treatment-Wally West or X-Men?

Marvel is doing what everybody else is doing.

And okay, you read the whole comic. I chose to spend my $3.99 on something else and watch the recap for free.

There are some recaps you can't watch. Because it's not about the book but an agenda to rile an emotion that does not need it.

[ed2962]

You can't.




Most of those folks do NOT buy the books.
Most of those folks who CLAIM to buy the books already have an agenda with them.

You can NOT single out ONE company for doing stuff EVERYBODY does.
Zombie Tramp averages 7-8 variants a month. Her order numbers are Moon Girl level.
If no one wants to read a book starring black folks as leads-Image, Dark Horse, Vault, Aftershock, Scout, Oni Press, Titans, Lion Forge & Book did NOT get the memo.
If no one wants to read a book with LGBTQ leads-IDW's new GI Joe book missed the memo as did Lumberjanes, Fence, Backstagers and a lot more.
Archie is NOT following anyone's childhood. Nor is Titan's Robotech.
How many months is Doomsday Clock at Dc behind?
Who got the WORST treatment-Wally West or X-Men?

Marvel is doing what everybody else is doing.




There are some recaps you can't watch. Because it's not about the book but an agenda to rile an emotion that does not need it.

They'll buy the comics, but only so they can do videos where they burn, rip up, or even stab the comic.

[Bloxer]

Doubt it.

Ultimate Universe was officially killed off around Time Runs Out and 616 was going well. Due to Steve, Odinson, Stark, Banner, Logan and others being replaced (I liked x-23 and Captain Falcon), the bad reception of some of the lower tier books (Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, America, etc.) there was a bit of revolt, cancellation of Fantastic Four and Inhumans push at the expense of the X-Men, there was a bit of revolt from fans, drop in quality and event abuse.

Yeah, I don't recall Squirrel Girl getting bad reception.
America definitely, but Squirrel Girl not so much.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

They'll buy the comics, but only so they can do videos where they burn, rip up, or even stab the comic.

That's such a waste. I rather you just pirate it.

[Rosebunse]

That's such a waste. I rather you just pirate it.

Seriously, destroying a book like that is just wrong.

[9th.]

How am I taking Kitty's actions out of context? The Marauders invaded another country, attacked soldiers defending said country, committed horrific acts of violence against people simply doing their job. And I get that they're outlaws, the X-Men have always operated on the fringes of what people consider legal. But this is a level of violence to my knowledge Kitty never displayed before outside of her being possessed by Baron Karza of being under some form of mind control. Does liquor count?

And okay, you read the whole comic. I chose to spend my $3.99 on something else and watch the recap for free.

I suggest you read the actual comic because thats all wrong, even if you just looked at the pictures it's still wrong. You don't even have to spend the 3.99 because it's 2019 and we have have the internet.

[9th.]

They'll buy the comics, but only so they can do videos where they burn, rip up, or even stab the comic.

Not only is that a waste but you're still supporting marvel by buying their product.

[ed2962]

That's such a waste. I rather you just pirate it.

Sure, but they can't make a show of destroying it then.

[ed2962]

Not only is that a waste but you're still supporting marvel by buying their product.

Those people don't care cause it's not really about getting Marvel to change their product, it's about selling fake outrage.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I disagree with the initial premise of this thread at all levels. The Ultimate comics are the best comics that Marvel has ever produced, period. But If I'm asked about my favorite stories and runs from outside of it, then I have to mention New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Civil War, House of M, World War Hulk, Secret Invasion, Daughters of the Dragon & Heroes for Hire, Illuminati, New Thunderbolts, 2006 Ms. Marvel, Young Avengers, the first Runaways... definitely, the turn of the century was the greatest Golden Age of Marvel Comics.

[Rosebunse]

I disagree with the initial premise of this thread at all levels. The Ultimate comics are the best comics that Marvel has ever produced, period. But If I'm asked about my favorite stories and runs from outside of it, then I have to mention New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Civil War, House of M, World War Hulk, Secret Invasion, Daughters of the Dragon & Heroes for Hire, Illuminati, New Thunderbolts, 2006 Ms. Marvel, Young Avengers, the first Runaways... definitely, the turn of the century was the greatest Golden Age of Marvel Comics.

It was just a big time of change. And it felt like there was this big story that was going on. I mean, it still feels that way, but we're in a much different book now.

[jackolover]

"Mutants establishing their own nation and bigots not wanting to let that stand."

THAT IS THE FU*KING STORY!

Hickman's job as a writer isn't to create a world for mutants where they've solved all their problems and finally they can live in peace. Once you do that, what stories are there left to tell?

No, the point is to give them a whole new set of problems to contend with.



You think? Gee, it's almost like Hickman created a situation where dramatic confrontations between humans and mutants are inevitable. Crazy, right?

It's the kind of situation that will naturally lead to high stake stories rich in conflict and consequences. Kind of what most readers want comics to be about.

That it is. But I’m not sure it is a reasonable plan right from the start. If I was an X-Men writer, I would ferret them away, as being a far more sound plan. Then get your bigots and mutant haters to try and find them. With Hickman’s plan, he is practically dangling mutants in front of humans, saying, “here’s my ultimatum”.

What are we saying here? That mutants can’t help but walk right into danger? At least Professor X had a plan - let’s hide in plain sight but stay out of the headlines.

And not sure we can categorise them as mutants. Mutants are born deformed. The X-Men gain their powers when they reach puberty. So did Spider-Man. So the X-Men are just a sub-Group of super heroes to me, who get super powers without radioactive spiders. I have not been convinced X-Men, or how they term themselves mutants, are an evolutionary step replacing humans. You can say that about super heroes too.

But that’s getting off topic. Sorry.

[Prof. Warren]

That it is. But I’m not sure it is a reasonable plan right from the start. If I was an X-Men writer, I would ferret them away, as being a far more sound plan. Then get your bigots and mutant haters to try and find them. With Hickman’s plan, he is practically dangling mutants in front of humans, saying, “here’s my ultimatum”.

What are we saying here? That mutants canÂ’t help but walk right into danger? At least Professor X had a plan - letÂ’s hide in plain sight but stay out of the headlines.

It's not the job of Hickman and the other X-writers to supply mutants with a viable plan that will sustain an amicable peace between them and humanity.

This is not happening in reality. This is not about reasonable or sound plans. This is about telling stories with dramatic conflict.

Yes, within the story Xavier is being very bold with his plans and telling humanity that this is a new day for mutantkind.

He feels that this is the best way to proceed because his previous courses of action have led to failure. Where this path will lead, we don't know yet. But it surely will provide fodder for many stories because it is a provocative move, bound to incite opposition.

One more time: Stories thrive on conflict.

And not sure we can categorise them as mutants. Mutants are born deformed. The X-Men gain their powers when they reach puberty. So did Spider-Man. So the X-Men are just a sub-Group of super heroes to me, who get super powers without radioactive spiders. I have not been convinced X-Men, or how they term themselves mutants, are an evolutionary step replacing humans. You can say that about super heroes too.

Oh my God.

If you're going to say that "I don't believe what Marvel is telling me about their characters!" you have a serious comprehension issue.

Mutants are defined by the presence of the X-gene. It's not like superheroes who often receive their powers through accidents of science (such as Hulk or Spider-Man) or through technology (such as Iron Man) or hail from mythology (like Thor or Hercules).

They are born different, period. They are not homo sapiens but rather homo superior.

They do represent an evolutionary change, which you cannot say about superheroes in general.

We know all this because that is what is in the comics. You don't have to wait for further "proof" to believe it.

We aren't waiting for objective scientific studies to play out or results from the lab to return before we can say with confidence that mutants should even be called mutants or whether they are actually an evolutionary step replacing humans.

This is what the stories are about. You don't have to scratch your head and "Hmm, I don't know. Are they really mutants? Are they really the next evolutionary step?"

The answer, in case you think it's unclear in any way, is YES.