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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Exactly my point. In fact my first read of that issue was that. That she was pregnant from Eddie but never told him and was dissuaded even more by Venom bonding with her. But no, I re-read it again and it was indeed the case that the Symbiote somehow impregnated her. Charging a scene that didn't have it before with a rape undertone. Think about it, really, Venom RAPED Anne for no reason. Literally no reason.

    The lying thing was...I mean...Jeez. Really. How he managed to demonize the Symbiote from years after years of having his entire run with Flash devoted to showing how Venom wasn't evil, how it was just bad hosts not allowing the Symbiote to be the hero it wanted to be. Bam. All gone. Even if Venom legit gaslighted him like that, he should have revealed it as soon as it got the chance. I don't know...I really don't like how he writes their relationship at times. It's just too toxic. There wasn't anything to touch there but he just shoehorned the drama
    And while Cates is doing all of that, he's trying to make Eddie sound like he's a victim of circumstance, not an asshole who was pissed at the world and willingly joined the symbiote and was just as responsible for their bad actions.

    Not to mention that the symbiote gaslighting to bond with someone is out of character, he either bonds peacefully, or forcefully, never showed the desire to do it by fooling the person.

    It sounds like Cates wants to tell a story about Eddie without Venom, so he made the symbiote into a different kind of asshole for that so they have a reason to separate, and that's eh.

    Edit: Geez I take too long to write replies, 3 more were made while I was writing my own lol.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-26-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #17
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I guess they were following the possibilities of people who died falling, though this is a rumor at best, can only see that killing people with weak hearts, something that never seemed to be a problem Gwen had.

    But regardless of the case, I find her death to be stupid, pretty sure there were like at least 2 situations before Gwen where Spidey saved someone from the same situation and they were fine, but Gwen dies because... Because? Meh lol.

    It'd be more acceptable if Norman threw her, super strength could make that much of a difference (Well, if he has it, early ASM was kinda vague on whether or not Green Goblin had super strength), but she was just pushed by the glider, maybe the glider could've done damage too, but didn't look like the case.



    And while Cates is doing all of that, he's trying to make Eddie sound like he's a victim of circumstance, not an asshole who was pissed at the world and willingly joined the symbiote and was just as responsible for their bad actions.

    Not to mention that the symbiote gaslighting to bond with someone is out of character, he either bonds peacefully, or forcefully, never showed the desire to do it by fooling the person.

    It sounds like Cates wants to tell a story about Eddie without Venom, so he made the symbiote into a different kind of asshole for that so they have a reason to separate, and that's eh.
    Funny enough, the War of the Realms tie-in by Cullen Bunn actually rectified that somewhat by having Eddie acknowledge during his time as "Magic Venom" that his own issues and inner demons were just as much a factor in the creation of Venom as any symbiote that bonded with him. That said, as long as we're talking lesser-known retcons that I didn't like . . . hmm, I don't have many Spider-Man-connected retcons that I didn't like, but there is one I liked --- Marvel Knights Spider-Man by Mark Millar revealing that many if not most of the early supervillains were the result of a conspiracy by corrupt industrialists and politicians wanting to keep the nascent superhero population distracted from their own, arguably greater crimes and offenses against society and humanity. I thought it was a great way to subtly update a lot of the early Marvel villains that were created in the midst of the Cold War, since the sliding timescale would make those villains' Cold War origins rather anachronistic.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, the War of the Realms tie-in by Cullen Bunn actually rectified that somewhat by having Eddie acknowledge during his time as "Magic Venom" that his own issues and inner demons were just as much a factor in the creation of Venom as any symbiote that bonded with him. That said, as long as we're talking lesser-known retcons that I didn't like . . . hmm, I don't have many Spider-Man-connected retcons that I didn't like, but there is one I liked --- Marvel Knights Spider-Man by Mark Millar revealing that many if not most of the early supervillains were the result of a conspiracy by corrupt industrialists and politicians wanting to keep the nascent superhero population distracted from their own, arguably greater crimes and offenses against society and humanity. I thought it was a great way to subtly update a lot of the early Marvel villains that were created in the midst of the Cold War, since the sliding timescale would make those villains' Cold War origins rather anachronistic.
    Ultimately, the problem with most retcons is a lack of consistency.

    Writers honestly have no idea how to interpret Venom’s morality.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Ultimately, the problem with most retcons is a lack of consistency.

    Writers honestly have no idea how to interpret Venom’s morality.
    Part of the issue with that is that you're asking writers to make a(n anti-)hero out of someone whose whole motivation boiled down to a misguided grudge born out of refusal to take responsibility for his own mistakes and resulting downfall and who despite his pretensions of wanting to "protect the innocent" had no problem killing anyone who got in his way or got between him and the object of his wrath. That was always going to be hard to square away, and some writers managed it worse than others.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, the War of the Realms tie-in by Cullen Bunn actually rectified that somewhat by having Eddie acknowledge during his time as "Magic Venom" that his own issues and inner demons were just as much a factor in the creation of Venom as any symbiote that bonded with him.
    Honestly, I was considering to skip over that tie-in just because it was a tie-in, but I checked it out anyways, and honestly, Eddie's characterization there felt more like usual Eddie, and him admitting that he's at fault too was nice, mature of him.

    At least, Venom#16 is still considering that, since Eddie has that monologue where he says "Am I a good guy who bonded with a bad thing that turned him into a monster? Or a I the monster who turned a good thing bad?" so it probably wasn't just Bunn's thing and Cates had this planned, and hopefully after Absolute Carnage he keeps this development, 'cause Eddie being just the victim doesn't work.

    That said, as long as we're talking lesser-known retcons that I didn't like . . . hmm, I don't have many Spider-Man-connected retcons that I didn't like, but there is one I liked --- Marvel Knights Spider-Man by Mark Millar revealing that many if not most of the early supervillains were the result of a conspiracy by corrupt industrialists and politicians wanting to keep the nascent superhero population distracted from their own, arguably greater crimes and offenses against society and humanity. I thought it was a great way to subtly update a lot of the early Marvel villains that were created in the midst of the Cold War, since the sliding timescale would make those villains' Cold War origins rather anachronistic.
    Yeah that was an interesting, but is probably just forgotten now.

    One thing that would be cool now that I think of it, they could use this to explain why Daredevil changed what he fights, since he started like any other hero, then eventually was fighting less the typical super villains and went on to try to hurt crime bosses like Fisk, it could be explained that Matt realized what's going on, and decided to go after crime bosses to indirectly damage them, thus possibly toning down super villains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Part of the issue with that is that you're asking writers to make a(n anti-)hero out of someone whose whole motivation boiled down to a misguided grudge born out of refusal to take responsibility for his own mistakes and resulting downfall and who despite his pretensions of wanting to "protect the innocent" had no problem killing anyone who got in his way or got between him and the object of his wrath. That was always going to be hard to square away, and some writers managed it worse than others.
    Well, editors could try to do their job to have more consistency too...

    Either way, I just remembered a retcon I don't like, we had this moment in ASM#150:

    https://i.imgur.com/QaHM7Wh.png

    https://i.imgur.com/jGeNArn.png

    Basically, since Gwen died, Peter moved on, developed as a person, and started to love MJ, and if he was a clone, the stimuli of being near Jackal would make him not have those emotions, and this is the reason Peter didn't bother to check the test results, he didn't have to.

    Part of the reason I like this is because I believe that a clone wouldn't be like the person they were cloned from even with the memories, because if they didn't live those moments, it'd be a lot less impactful for them, thus they would be different, this story kinda has that.

    But unfortunately, this wasn't the case once clones returned:

    https://i.imgur.com/I0FKYHG.png

    https://i.imgur.com/GYeFbBs.png

    This one is from one of the issues where Ben's story was being told in the beginning of clone saga accross Spidey's 4 comics, but it was all compiled in "Spider-Man: The lost years#0", but anyways, even when we get Ben's point of view, he makes no mention of this, realizing that he couldn't be the real Peter because of the way he feels that is, he just randomly realizes he's a clone, and honestly, that's too bad, Peter realizing he's not the clone because he moved on and loves MJ, would be nice if Ben realized he's the clone for the opposite reasons, making their situation go full circle.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-26-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Honestly, I was considering to skip over that tie-in just because it was a tie-in, but I checked it out anyways, and honestly, Eddie's characterization there felt more like usual Eddie, and him admitting that he's at fault too was nice, mature of him.

    At least, Venom#16 is still considering that, since Eddie has that monologue where he says "Am I a good guy who bonded with a bad thing that turned him into a monster? Or a I the monster who turned a good thing bad?" so it probably wasn't just Bunn's thing and Cates had this planned, and hopefully after Absolute Carnage he keeps this development, 'cause Eddie being just the victim doesn't work.



    Yeah that was an interesting, but is probably just forgotten now.

    One thing that would be cool now that I think of it, they could use this to explain why Daredevil changed what he fights, since he started like any other hero, then eventually was fighting less the typical super villains and went on to try to hurt crime bosses like Fisk, it could be explained that Matt realized what's going on, and decided to go after crime bosses to indirectly damage them, thus possibly toning down super villains.




    Well, editors could try to do their job to have more consistency too...

    Either way, I just remembered a retcon I don't like, we had this moment in ASM#150:

    https://i.imgur.com/QaHM7Wh.png

    https://i.imgur.com/jGeNArn.png

    Basically, since Gwen died, Peter moved on, developed as a person, and started to love MJ, and if he was a clone, the stimuli of being near Jackal would make him not have those emotions, and this is the reason Peter didn't bother to check the test results, he didn't have to.

    Part of the reason I like this is because I believe that a clone wouldn't be like the person they were cloned from even with the memories, because if they didn't live those moments, it'd be a lot less impactful for them, thus they would be different, this story kinda has that.

    But unfortunately, this wasn't the case once clones returned:


    https://i.imgur.com/I0FKYHG.png

    https://i.imgur.com/GYeFbBs.png

    This one is from one of the issues where Ben's story was being told in the beginning of clone saga accross Spidey's 4 comics, but it was all compiled in "Spider-Man: The lost years#0", but anyways, even when we get Ben's point of view, he makes no mention of this, realizing that he couldn't be the real Peter because of the way he feels that is, he just randomly realizes he's a clone, and honestly, that's too bad, Peter realizing he's not the clone because he moved on and loves MJ, would be nice if Ben realized he's the clone for the opposite reasons, making their situation go full circle.
    That would have been good to see, and now that you bring it up, I wonder why they didn't go that route. I also like your recontextualization of Daredevil's shift toward fighting organized crime (and the occasional Hand ninja) than the "typical" supervillain in light of the Marvel Knights Spider-Man retcon.
    Last edited by Huntsman Spider; 10-26-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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  7. #22
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That would have been good to see, and now that you bring it up, I wonder why they didn't go that route.
    Well, considenting that they were quoting exact lines, and we see stuff like Jackal using a jetpack (Same design and all from the one he gave Tarantula to use), they definitely read the issues, buy maybe they just didn't understand it, or maybe they understood the point of the original, but ignored it anyways to have the possibility of Ben being the real one, because by having Ben realize he's the clone because he was influenced and didn't love MJ, it'd be contradictory once Marvel tried to say he was the real one.

    I also like your recontextualization of Daredevil's shift toward fighting organized crime (and the occasional Hand ninja) than the "typical" supervillain in light of the Marvel Knights Spider-Man retcon.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-26-2019 at 06:15 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Well, considenting that they were quoting exact lines, and we see stuff like Jackal using a jetpack (Same design and all from the one he gave Tarantula to use), they definitely read the issues, buy maybe they just didn't understand it, or maybe they understood the point of the original, but ignored it anyways to have the possibility of Ben being the real one.



    Thanks.
    You're welcome, and that's a good point, too. Come to think of it, the entirety of the 90s Clone Saga could be construed as completely ignoring the point of the original.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #24
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    How about, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #11, in which it was revealed Norman Osborn was the one responsible for infecting Otto Octavius' first girlfriend / former fiancee, Mary Alice, of AIDS?

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    How about, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #11, in which it was revealed Norman Osborn was the one responsible for infecting Otto Octavius' first girlfriend / former fiancee, Mary Alice, of AIDS?
    That was not only unnecessary it was also disgusting (a la Sins Past but to a lesser degree).
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    How about, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #11, in which it was revealed Norman Osborn was the one responsible for infecting Otto Octavius' first girlfriend / former fiancee, Mary Alice, of AIDS?
    I don’t know why writers believe that archenemies need to have backstories with each other. It’s the same problem with Sins Past. There was no hint that Norman would even have a need to have a personal relationship with Gwen.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    How about, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #11, in which it was revealed Norman Osborn was the one responsible for infecting Otto Octavius' first girlfriend / former fiancee, Mary Alice, of AIDS?
    First I'm aware of this and makes me glad I stuck to the Christopher Yost issues, he's the definitive SpOck writer.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I don’t know why writers believe that archenemies need to have backstories with each other. It’s the same problem with Sins Past. There was no hint that Norman would even have a need to have a personal relationship with Gwen.
    The issue's initial appeal, of a Goblin / Octopus meeting / alliance, was entertaining, possibly even long overdue, since there previously was no proper previous Green Goblin / Doctor Octopus meeting in their traditional appearances.

  14. #29

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    I really hated the revelation that Curt Connors has always been in control of the Lizard. That one's been largely ignored.

  15. #30

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    Nine posts on whether Peter accidentally killed Gwen were moved to a new thread.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ally-kill-Gwen

    A few posts were deleted.

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