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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I really hated the revelation that Curt Connors has always been in control of the Lizard. That one's been largely ignored.
    Yeah, that one was terrible as it undermines the whole duality of personality concept behind the Lizard.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Yeah, that one was terrible as it undermines the whole duality of personality concept behind the Lizard.
    Ehh. Duality can be stupid after a certain point.

    It always seemed ridiculous to me that everytime someone transforms, they suddenly get a split personality that somehow has no bearing on their original.

    That’s why I prefer interpretations of Hulk where he’s a manifestation of Banner’s psyche than just a separate one. It feels more realistic to me.

  3. #33
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Ehh. Duality can be stupid after a certain point.

    It always seemed ridiculous to me that everytime someone transforms, they suddenly get a split personality that somehow has no bearing on their original.

    That’s why I prefer interpretations of Hulk where he’s a manifestation of Banner’s psyche than just a separate one. It feels more realistic to me.
    I'm rather fascinated with the Jungian shadow archetype and how it can manifest or be depicted in fiction, so having the Lizard's personality possibly be influenced by some subconscious misanthropy on Curt Connors' part that Curt's human-form personality represses is an interesting twist. Didn't like the part where it made him kill his own son, but I thought it was a good twist that could've been explored better. And yes, the Hulk being born from Bruce Banner's rage over the abuse he (and his mother) suffered at his father's hands when he was a child, as well as possibly his anger at being compelled to use his genius to make bigger and better bombs, would make a lot of sense, too, given the classic Hulk's childlike mentality and how often he has been targeted by the military (and by some accounts, attempted to be weaponized by said military).
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Not sure it's a retcon, per say, but I think Ultimate Gwen Stacy's clone resurrecting the original in the Ultimate comics didn't work very well; I don't think there was really any more for the character to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    That means the common examples that everybody talks about all the time are not to be included. What lesser known retcons to the mythos are you not fond of? Me personally, what I would say are the retcons to make Chameleon and Kraven brothers and also to make Rhino Russian all of the sudden. Neither of these I think were necessary changes to make.
    Thought the Rino was always Russian (wasn't he trying to steal the information of John Jameson's astronaut mission for the Soviets in his first appearance?). What didn't like about Kraven and Chameleon being brothers?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #35
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    Most people have problems with JMS's retcons concerning Gwen having twins, and the animal totem pole magic garbage, and whatever his hand was in OMD, but he also had some other lesser known doozies.

    His first bad retcon was the fact he changed Midtown High from being in suburban Queens to being an inner-city public school in actual Midtown Manhattan. *cough*

    One of the other lesser known retcons I don't like is that there was an even geekier geek than Peter in Midtown High named Charlie Weiderman, who became a really poor man's Molten Man. His appearance made Peter look less like the ultimate social outcast he was previously in high school, and more like a guy who got bullied, but then passed it down to someone even lower on the totem pole in Charlie, because shit rolls downhill. Even worse than shoehorning his character in Peter's high school life, was the fact Charlie BLEW. UP. THE. FOREST. HILLS. HOME. That home has been a mainstay in the Spidey mythos for decades, packed with memories. Are we supposed to believe that it was then rebuilt from scratch and almost everything was the same? That poor house has then received further abuse in later stories like 'Who Was Ben Reilly?" when it was set on fire. It was never the scene of destruction until the 2000s and then it was open season on that poor house.

    I like JMS overall. But he sure didn't mind playing fast and loose with continuity and a lot of those problems with star creators ignoring established facts and history really started around that same time.
    Last edited by HypnoHustler; 10-27-2019 at 08:47 PM.

  6. #36
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    To be fair, I don’t think that Midtown Queens is a real place whereas Midtown Manhattan is. JMS either made a mistake or corrected one.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    To be fair, I donít think that Midtown Queens is a real place whereas Midtown Manhattan is. JMS either made a mistake or corrected one.
    You can't "correct a mistake" made by Lee and Ditko, because they're the originators of the mythos. Yes, Midtown Manhattan is a real place. But all "mid town" really means is middle of a town. There could be midtowns in Queens, because comics don't need to 100% mirror the real world.

    The first thirty issues of ASM took place in this suburban environment that was near Peter's Forest Hills home. It doesn't make sense to retroactively transplant it into Manhattan.

  8. #38
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    The difference with Peter and Charlie is Peter never antagonised his bullies, Charlie did. So Peter would be walking down a hall and get picked on by 1-2 people for laughs and whims. Charlie would walk down a hall and (because he'd been an asshole) EVERYONE who was in anyway a bully would start.

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Hugo Strange's Avatar
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    Lizard always been Connors (A Lizard's Tale by Jenkins)

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Hugo Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The difference with Peter and Charlie is Peter never antagonised his bullies, Charlie did.
    So Peter NEVER antagonised Flash?!

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The difference with Peter and Charlie is Peter never antagonised his bullies, Charlie did. So Peter would be walking down a hall and get picked on by 1-2 people for laughs and whims. Charlie would walk down a hall and (because he'd been an asshole) EVERYONE who was in anyway a bully would start.
    Peter did antagonize Flash plenty of times, often because Flash started it, but Peter sometimes starts too.

    Here, an example from the first page of ASM#8:


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Or, how many Spider-Characters had abusive / negligent fathers?

    - Mary Jane Watson
    - Norman Osborn
    - Harry Osborn
    - Otto Octavius
    - Eddie Brock
    - Flash Thompson

    I even recall, in just one issue of Tangled Web, a few years before Brand New Day, J Jonah Jameson's father was jerkish. High point of that issue though, Jonah fell in love with Joan the moment she stood up to him.
    Weren't ALL of them alcoholic at THAT? (With the exception of Harry's father Norman)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Kinda sad that all her role was be there sometimes.

    Weird that he just didn't make Gwen's mother be alive though, it'd be easier since Gwen not having a mother never was a problem for her or George in the comics, and Harry's mother being alive didn't change his family dynamic at all, so her role was just "Don't make Harry's family be lacking someone" lol.
    I think one of the main reasons Emily was kept alive in the Spectacular cartoon was that Norman had to "die" during the show's run; thus opening up questions like "where would he go?" Oscorp is easier to pass on to someone like Donald Menkin (though I've seen some adaptations give the company straight to a teenage Harry, which is goofy as he isn't even old enough to vote but we are to believe that he is to legally run a multi-million dollar company), but then we run into the problem of Norman's son being left with the butler of all people. Though anything with Emily definitely is a bad look for her though. In Spectacular with Harry's family dynamic not changing with her existence it could be argued that she was just as bad as Norman; and the recent revelation in comics makes her kind of an absentee parent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Peter did antagonize Flash plenty of times, often because Flash started it, but Peter sometimes starts too.

    Here, an example from the first page of ASM#8:

    I will say there have been a lot of smaller retcons and adaptations that have made Peter more nerdy and more of "the woobie" than he actually was. I do feel like they double down on the downtrodden nerd archetype, when in reality Peter had a bit of a mouth on him back in the day.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 10-28-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Thought the Rino was always Russian (wasn't he trying to steal the information of John Jameson's astronaut mission for the Soviets in his first appearance?). What didn't like about Kraven and Chameleon being brothers?
    Well Stan Lee would typically purposely spell words incorrectly to emphasize how they would sound with an accent and Rhino’s lines featured a lot that would only make sense for an American. Also it wouldn’t make sense for Rhino to have been so good at dropping a Russian accent as he was presented as very unintelligent which was why he was chosen. He also never had an accent in media until this decade so if people thought Rhino was Russian before then he probably would have had an accent in at least some adaption. With Kraven and Chameleon I just think it was wholly unnecessary to do it.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I think one of the main reasons Emily was kept alive in the Spectacular cartoon was that Norman had to "die" during the show's run; thus opening up questions like "where would he go?" Oscorp is easier to pass on to someone like Donald Menkin (though I've seen some adaptations give the company straight to a teenage Harry, which is goofy as he isn't even old enough to vote but we are to believe that he is to legally run a multi-million dollar company), but then we run into the problem of Norman's son being left with the butler of all people. Though anything with Emily definitely is a bad look for her though. In Spectacular with Harry's family dynamic not changing with her existence it could be argued that she was just as bad as Norman; and the recent revelation in comics makes her kind of an absentee parent.
    Yeah, maybe she was as bad as Norman, or maybe she was an good parent, problem is, we don't know, the writters were lazy by having her being still alive, yet writing the show like she doesn't exist, Harry is still all about getting daddy dearest's approval, Harry's relationship with his mother? Not known since we don't even get hints of what it's like, and if she's as bad as Norman then it's weird Harry doesn't try to get her approval too, we also have no idea what her relationship with Norman is like.

    They probably kept her so quiet because they were planning to use her later, with Norman being "dead" by the end of season 2, it's possible that in season 3 she'd actually start doing something, but again, having her around in the first two seasons and not changing the family dynamic or even hinting what she does at the house is lazy, though it's possible they did that so she gives this mysterious vibe, but eh, lazy lol.

    There's three hints of what she's like, in the dinner scene with Miles in Norman's house, we have Curt saying "everyone deserves a second chance", in response to that, Martha looks at Emily, not subtly too, so she might have done something that she'd need a second chance, in the last episode she arrives when Spidey is wondering who between Norman and Harry is Green Goblin, and once Chameleon disguised as Norman says "I've got this handled dear", she just leaves, and in Norman's funeral, she leaves before Peter/Gwen/Harry, and is still with that blank face, so maybe she doesn't love Norman, but that's it, what they hint at points at her being more on the uncaring side who may have done something that deserves a second chance, but eh lol.

    Edit: Also, while she's an absentee parent by that dumbass retcon in GDS, she did it out of fear of Norman, which is fair enough, Norman would be too powerful for her to try to get Harry from him.

    I will say there have been a lot of smaller retcons and adaptations that have made Peter more nerdy and more of "the woobie" than he actually was. I do feel like they double down on the downtrodden nerd archetype, when in reality Peter had a bit of a mouth on him back in the day.
    Yeah, adaptations and retcons make Peter's and Flash's situation a lot more bland and generic, Peter had no problem mocking Flash, and Flash mostly didn't hit Peter, in fact, ASM#8 is the only time it happens, his bullying was just to relentlessly keep annoying Peter, which I'm not saying it isn't bad, but it's less bad than what they show in flashbacks with him mocking and beating Peter.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-28-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Well Stan Lee would typically purposely spell words incorrectly to emphasize how they would sound with an accent and Rhino’s lines featured a lot that would only make sense for an American. Also it wouldn’t make sense for Rhino to have been so good at dropping a Russian accent as he was presented as very unintelligent which was why he was chosen. He also never had an accent in media until this decade so if people thought Rhino was Russian before then he probably would have had an accent in at least some adaption.
    Maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    With Kraven and Chameleon I just think it was wholly unnecessary to do it.
    Ah.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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