Superior Spider-Man #12

[Bloxer]

Or maybe just acknowledging that Peter does, in fact, conveniently date supermodels and hot girls throughout the entire run. Has Peter /ever/ given anyone like Anna Maria a second look? And moreover, Anna Maria is not omniscient. That's the difference /she/ sees based on her personal experience. Her opinion isn't the writer's gospel and it's not like she knows of his interaction with MJ.

That sounds like an excuse, you talk personal experience but she knows Peter she's met and worked with him for an extended period of time, she should know he's a good guy who's not shallow or superficial like that.

[Tendrin]

That sounds like an excuse, you talk personal experience but she knows Peter she's met and worked with him for an extended period of time, she should know he's a good guy who's not shallow or superficial like that.

She never said he was a bad guy, but come on, Peter is perfectly capable of being shallow or superficial. He's human.

[boots]

She never said he was a bad guy, but come on, Peter is perfectly capable of being shallow or superficial. He's human.

peter parker; patron saint of guilt over anything but dating hotties

[Prof. Warren]

Doctor Octopus's essential purpose as a character is a villain to Spider-Man. That is the foundation of his being. That is his essence. He will always be a villain and nothing more.

Yes, but a GREAT villain, one of the all-timers. That's a stature to be appreciated, not dismissed as "nothing more."

Also, I just need to add the funeral was just so overdramatic in-universe and out.
Like they all know he's still alive, the book was trying too hard to be emotional about it, and fails because they just make me think "They seriously bought a plot, got a coffin, made the arrangements to mourn a person who's still alive?"
The whole "watching your own funeral" thing doesn't work or have any impact when they are well aware he's not actually dead.

In this case, even though Anna and Emma know that Otto is alive, they are mourning the death of the man they knew, who is certainly, for all intents and purposes, dead.

It proves he's a vain narcissist and selfish jackass since all he cares about is his manpain.

Which is why Otto's return to villainy works. His core personality faults never went away. It's what made him entertaining as a character, that he was always acting against his own nature.

There was any moral conviction in Superior Spider-Man and that is the paramount reason why it's a failure as a story and concept.

A "failure" that went on for seven years? Alpha, now there's a failure as a story and concept. SSM, on the other hand, no.

It worked. And enjoyed a life and popularity well past what it was initially expected to have.

I like how Hickman treated Superior in his Avengers/New Avengers run...you can sense the total contempt on the part of the writer for that version. That's how Superior Trash should be treated, with contempt.

What you're doing is called "projecting." You do it a lot. And boy, your bitterness at Slott's success is hilarious. It just eats you up alive.

So that's it. Doc Ock was designed as a villain so that's all he will forever be? Then what's the point of something like this? What's the point of developing him to this degree only to revert him back to normal?

To have fun? To tell an entertaining story? Just because a story ends doesn't mean it wasn't worth telling.

Venom was also designed as a villain. You're basically saying the only reason he gets to change is because of popularity and profitability.

Venom is a different case. The Symboite only turned bad when it was rejected by Peter. Eddie was, before being bonded with the symboite, not a bad guy. There was always hope for redemption in both. Otto had a long, long history of being straight-up evil. He's a classic bad guy, a megalomaniacal genius. You only get a few of those great ones. You can't take that guy off the shelf for good.

That sounds like an excuse, you talk personal experience but she knows Peter she's met and worked with him for an extended period of time, she should know he's a good guy who's not shallow or superficial like that.

So she has a different view of Peter. So what? So she gives Otto more credit than he deserves. So what?

It's no different than May continually defending that "sweet man" Otto against that "awful" Spider-Man. I'm sure that's something that Gage was aware of, that there's a history of women defending Otto against Spider-Man, and this was a nod to that.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Has Peter /ever/ given anyone like Anna Maria a second look?

Peter DOES not have to do that. As the saying goes "the heart wants what it wants". You have no control over the people you are attracted to and who in turn are attracted to you. Fact is romance/relationships are private personal things and commenting on that or making some judgment about it is just being a resentful creep. Especially when used in a context to score cheap points.

And moreover, Anna Maria is not omniscient. That's the difference /she/ sees based on her personal experience. Her opinion isn't the writer's gospel and it's not like she knows of his interaction with MJ.

This is blatantly a case of the writer making mouthpieces of the character. What Anna Maria says there is identical to what Slott said and what Gage said in a podcast at Spider-Talk. It doesn't make sense from Anna Maria's POV. She befriended Peter during that whole Parker Industries fiasco. She even tried to get Peter to date Bobbi Morse.

The biggest mistake is that it undermines Anna Maria's own character. For her to say that behind Peter's back and use that to prop up a guy who robbed what's basically a month of his life and ruined his reputation and standing is not the action of a good friend, implies a sense of hypocrisy by the character. It's like she's resentful of the fact that the "Peter" she knew wouldn't date her, and that she's resentful at Otto for making her believe "he" would, and that also means that Anna Maria herself only dated Otto because he was in a younger man's body.

exactly. characters aren’t and shouldn’t be writer’s mouth pieces

That IS EXACTLY what's happening here. Anna Maria is being made into a mouthpiece for the opinions of Slott and Gage. What she says here is what Gage and Slott have said publicly.

In this case, even though Anna and Emma know that Otto is alive, they are mourning the death of the man they knew, who is certainly, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Which is again creepy, morbid, and not really the actions of real-world normal bystanders which is what those characters are established as. When Bill Cosby revealed himself to be someone quite different from what people thought he was, people didn't hold serious funerals (complete with black dresses and veils) and mourn the person they thought Cosby was.

It's blatantly grounded in stupid comic book logic and not with any dramatic coherence.

A "failure" that went on for seven years?

We are talking about Gage's series. And it is a clear failure commercially.

Overall it's an artistic failure. As I explained clearly why it lacked coherence, thematic drive, consistency, and moral imperative. And as I have said before, something can be an artistic failure while enjoying limited commercial success for a while.

What you're doing is called "projecting."

Okay then. What part of Hickman's Avengers run shows Superior Ock positively. Tell me how I have misread things. If you are saying that my opinion about Hickman is projecting then demonstrate with examples how I am wrong. Otherwise, you are just hurling insults.

It's no different than May...

When has May Parker spoken behind Peter's back about his fondness for beautiful women and used that as a way to undermine him in favor of men like Otto. The answer is she never did that.

So quit trying to indulge in this Soviet style whataboutism...

[Tendrin]

Peter DOES not have to do that. As the saying goes "the heart wants what it wants". You have no control over the people you are attracted to and who in turn are attracted to you. Fact is romance/relationships are private personal things and commenting on that or making some judgment about it is just being a resentful creep. Especially when used in a context to score cheap points.

LOL.

No one suggested he 'has' to do anything. Speaking of 'defensiveness'.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

No one suggested he 'has' to do anything.

Then what is to be gained by making this point? When you make aspersions about someone's dating history and essentially imply that Peter's a shallow dude drawn to trophy women, you are making a judgment on that character and person.

So Slott/Gage can be taken to task for this. Since this is blatantly a case of a writer putting their opinion into the character. Anna Maria never once said anything of like nature about Peter and for a character established as the moral voice of this series. It is in fact utterly out-of-character for her to say this. And if you present this opinion in the mouth of a character established as a moral voice in this series then one can argue that the writer is out to settle scores on some level.

[Bloxer]

So she has a different view of Peter. So what? So she gives Otto more credit than he deserves. So what?

It's no different than May continually defending that "sweet man" Otto against that "awful" Spider-Man. I'm sure that's something that Gage was aware of, that there's a history of women defending Otto against Spider-Man, and this was a nod to that.

That is the weakest excuse I've heard yet.

She never said he was a bad guy, but come on, Peter is perfectly capable of being shallow or superficial. He's human.

Is he capable of that? Yes everyone is, but that doesn't change the fact she personally should know he's not the kind of guy who only gets involved with women because they're attractive.

[boots]

Peter DOES not have to do that. As the saying goes "the heart wants what it wants". You have no control over the people you are attracted to and who in turn are attracted to you.

that's a fair enough point irl to an extent (though it's one used by racists a lot), but lets not pretend for a second that this is where the writers of yesteryear ever came from when determining peter's love interests.

it was never "hot chick vs not hot chick.... who would peter choose? should i flip a coin? hmm, actually, the heart wants what the heart wants. hot it is!"

to be fair that's more a comic-wide and entertainment-wide issue than a peter issue. i see it my work all the time, the good looking people are unfairly advantaged. i'm aware of when i've contributed to that, don't see why a comic book can't explore that either.

and just because the heart wants what it want (or what society has taught it to want) doesn't mean that those who are often "unwanted" can't complain of that fact or have feelings about it. fair or not. or perhaps they should just accept it and go grow some mould in a shadowy corner.

Fact is romance/relationships are private personal things and commenting on that or making some judgment about it is just being a resentful creep. Especially when used in a context to score cheap points.

interesting use of the word "fact".

That IS EXACTLY what's happening here. Anna Maria is being made into a mouthpiece for the opinions of Slott and Gage. What she says here is what Gage and Slott have said publicly.

this is what i get for trying to be nice and mincing words; what i should have written was that characters shouldn't be used as mouth pieces by writers to convey their readership's morals and beliefs. the impression i get is the majority of spider-man fans seem to be quite...conservative...in terms of sex and relationships. not every character needs to support or prop that up. it should be a mix and the readers shouldn't agree with every character. that's something mature readers should hope for in their fiction.

as for anna maria being a mouthpiece for this particular writer...is this something that's been done in context that makes sense for her or is it something he continuously slams the reader with through all the characters bad mouthing peter's tinder history?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

that's a fair enough point irl to an extent (though it's one used by racists a lot)

WTF does that have to do with what's being discussed?

but lets not pretend for a second that this is where the writers of yesteryear ever came from when determining peter's love interests.

That's a separate issue. When you put that in the mouths of a character in-story, that issue dies altogether and becomes something else.

i'm aware of when i've contributed to that, don't see why a comic book can't explore that either.

Slott and Gage haven't explored that at all. Certainly not Slott who had Peter date Bobbi Morse, before that Lian Tang, and before that Carlie Cooper who are all conventionally attractive people.

An issue about body types in superheroes is worth exploring but there's a time and place to explore that for that to be meaningful and worthwhile. The way it's done here isn't it.

and just because the heart wants what it want (or what society has taught it to want) doesn't mean that those who are often "unwanted" can't complain of that fact or have feelings about it.

Unrequited love is a common universal emotion, common to people of all types.

fair or not. or perhaps they should just accept it and go grow some mould in a shadowy corner.

Or stop being resentful, appreciate themselves for what they are and learn to appreciate their best qualities. In the end everything evens out. Beauty fades, youth fades, and we all grow old and mouldy in our own shadowy corner anyway.

this is what i get for trying to be nice and mincing words; what i should have written was that characters shouldn't be used as mouth pieces by writers to convey their readership's morals and beliefs.

That's not what's being discussed/argued.

it should be a mix and the readers shouldn't agree with every character. that's something mature readers should hope for in their fiction.

Mature readers don't have to put up with the spectacle of a terrorist/murderer/conman having themselves being held up as an example for their dating profile. Then suffer through the spectacle of a baroque funeral which is played distressingly straight even if it makes zero sense for it to.

as for anna maria being a mouthpiece for this particular writer...is this something that's been done in context that makes sense for her

Said multiple times, it doesn't make sense for her. Anna Maria encouraged Peter to date Bobbi Morse when he was reluctant and never voiced opinions like that before.

...or is it something he continuously slams the reader with through all the characters bad mouthing peter's tinder history?

This.

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

This sucks. Thanks to the cloning subplot, they could have brought back classic Otto AND kept the Toliver persona as seperate characters. One thing I really hate about the Spidey books is their commitment to scorched earth hard resets. No permanent growth allowed eeeeeever.

[boots]

WTF does that have to do with what's being discussed?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tangent

That's a separate issue

sorry. should i have referred to "watsonian" and "doylist"?

Slott and Gage haven't explored that at all. Certainly not Slott who had Peter date Bobbi Morse, before that Lian Tang, and before that Carlie Cooper who are all conventionally attractive people.

An issue about body types in superheroes is worth exploring but there's a time and place to explore that for that to be meaningful and worthwhile. The way it's done here isn't it.

eh. i don't know who has explored it or where the revolution will begin, but as far as one character who has most likely been put in a corner all her life being able to express her feelings and feel a bit resentful (and not be a mutant who's fearful appearance is also part of their awesomeness)? just this one teeny time? i'm down and sympathetic to that.

Unrequited love is a common universal emotion, common to people of all types.

lets not pretend that it's an even playing field and that it's simply about unrequited love. you can try to wrap that bow around it, but entertainment (including comics) works on looks, charisma and chemistry. that's my job. and a lot of that is reflected and reflective of society.

Or stop being resentful, appreciate themselves for what they are and learn to appreciate their best qualities. In the end everything evens out. Beauty fades, youth fades, and we all grow old and mouldy in our own shadowy corner anyway.

the idea that people just need to suck up inequality until we're all equally old/dead is an interesting take, and one that i don't think will ever catch on.

"appreciate yourself" is great, but it doesn't fix systems that discourage that appreciation (had to walk away from a director the other day who said linda hamilton now looked like a man..that was a tangent btw). if a minority has been discriminated against their entire lives, they're allowed some negative feelings in regards to that. they're allowed to deal with it and come to terms in a messy and human way. and **** anyone who tries to tell them to be "better" or how to deal with their trauma.

this demand that characters stop being human beings is disappointing. for someone with as much resentment as you, jack, i'd have thought you'd be cooler with it in your fiction? and that's not a dig; it's a genuine bewilderment.

This.

sure, i'm open to that. what are the other examples of him using anna maria in this way?

[Bloxer]

This sucks. Thanks to the cloning subplot, they could have brought back classic Otto AND kept the Toliver persona as seperate characters. One thing I really hate about the Spidey books is their commitment to scorched earth hard resets. No permanent growth allowed eeeeeever.

Yeah only one Ock is needed around and it ain't the wannabe in the bad spider-man costume.

[Kurolegacy]

Yeah only one Ock is needed around and it ain't the wannabe in the bad spider-man costume.

And yet we can have 3 Peters and God knows how many duplicate characters running around. Yet somehow this would be breaking the bank. Hell it could even offer an interesting interaction when the 2 clashed.

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

Yeah only one Ock is needed around and it ain't the wannabe in the bad spider-man costume.

No one takes classic Otto seriously. Updated versions with believable motivations like the 2018 video game version or Alfred Molina's performance in the classic trilogy have rightfully earned their spot in the zeitgeist, but classic Otto, was just a mean-spirited overcompensater. Thank God the movies bring in so much cash, because if the office had to rely on producing good comics to pay the bills...