Superior Spider-Man #12

[Revolutionary_Jack]

sorry. should i have referred to "watsonian" and "doylist"?

Perhaps. It's a hard tightrope to walk between synching what a character says with what a writer means. If you do that badly, having a character voice the writer's opinion then it comes across as a mouthpiece.

i'm down and sympathetic to that.

Except it comes at the expense of undermining, insulting, and attacking someone else. And it cheapens Anna Maria as a character for her to say behind Peter's back that he's a trophy-hunter of some kind. She was friends with Peter in Parker Industries and so on...and if this is her expression of bitter rejection that Peter in his normal state wouldn't have wanted her then it's ridiculous since Peter had his consent violated and so on.

lets not pretend that it's an even playing field and that it's simply about unrequited love.

Well that's more or less the song since Cyrano de Bergerac you know.

the idea that people just need to suck up inequality until we're all equally old/dead is an interesting take, and one that i don't think will ever catch on.

Inequality is a real-world term about economic and class hardships. It has nothing whatsoever to do with who looks good. Otto Octavius was born in the middle-class and certainly had a better upbringing in money terms than Peter did, if not anywhere near Osborn's level.

if a minority has been discriminated against their entire lives, they're allowed some negative feelings in regards to that.

People who feel they are being rejected for dates because they aren't considered attractive is not a minority or equivalent to one. Being rejected for dates and so on because someone isn't in to you (and people have a right for that, for any number of reasons...that's what consent means) isn't in any way equivalent to economic struggles.

In college, Harry was richer than Peter, but Peter was more good looking despite coming from a poorer background. Harry resented Peter because Gwen (who Harry dated), then Mary Jane (who Harry dated on the rebound when she and Peter broke up) preferred Peter over him. By your logic, Harry is the oppressed minority in that situation. In general, good looks used to be a way for people from lower classes to get one over. That's where the jokes about the wife with the milkman, groundskeeper, and others came from.

what are the other examples of him using anna maria in this way?

Generally there aren't. In general Gage has used Anna Maria well but this instance not at all. And it comes across as a writer blatantly using a character as a mouthpiece.

It's not in character for Anna Maria to say that.

[Prof. Warren]

Which is again creepy, morbid, and not really the actions of real-world normal bystanders which is what those characters are established as. When Bill Cosby revealed himself to be someone quite different from what people thought he was, people didn't hold serious funerals (complete with black dresses and veils) and mourn the person they thought Cosby was.

Well, that's not a fitting analogy.

Everybody knows that Cosby, of course, is very much alive.

Most of the mourners at Elliot's funeral believe that he passed. Max's grief is very real.

As for Anna and Emma, it's legitimate that they should mourn him as though he were really gone.

They have, after all, lost him. He is gone. The man that he was is essentially erased, along with whatever potential happiness they might have had together.

To mourn that is quite understandable because it is absolutely real for them. They're not holding a fake funeral only to be re-united with Otto afterwards and continue where they left off. They are saying their final goodbyes.

We are talking about Gage's series. And it is a clear failure commercially.

As it was intended as a 12 issue series in order to wrap up the SSM story and they got to tell that story and end it as intended, I wouldn't call it a failure.

Overall it's an artistic failure. As I explained clearly why it lacked coherence, thematic drive, consistency, and moral imperative. And as I have said before, something can be an artistic failure while enjoying limited commercial success for a while.

Well, I think you want to claim that SSM in totality was a failure and it wasn't. It didn't enjoy "limited commercial success for a while," it enjoyed substantial commercial success for a sustained amount of time. It's why the character was able to have a twelve issue story to put a cap on that era.

Okay then. What part of Hickman's Avengers run shows Superior Ock positively. Tell me how I have misread things. If you are saying that my opinion about Hickman is projecting then demonstrate with examples how I am wrong. Otherwise, you are just hurling insults.

No, you're projecting. You're assuming that Hickman's motivations and feelings for SSM align with yours and that he's so petty and small-minded that he'd be openly contemptuous about it in a story. He doesn't have to show SSM positively in order to respect the character. SpOck was, after all, still a villain at heart with many unsavory, unlikable qualities. You can write him as such without it being a denigration of the character or the concept.

When has May Parker spoken behind Peter's back about his fondness for beautiful women and used that as a way to undermine him in favor of men like Otto. The answer is she never did that.

So quit trying to indulge in this Soviet style whataboutism...

May doesn't have to have spoken behind Peter's back about his fondness for beautiful women in order for it to be a funny truth that she used to see Otto as a good man, victimized by that horrible Spider-Man. That Anna's opinion should be so offensive to some is funny. After all, Peter isn't a real person who is being potentially slandered. This is just the opinion of one fictional character about another. That Anna has a slightly distorted take on both Otto and Peter is just being true to her own experiences. And in all truthfulness, would Peter ever date someone like Anna? I would say no. That doesn't make him shallow, necessarily, but given his track record, it's fair to say - and fair of Anna to notice - that he has a history of keeping company with the hottest women around.

[Junco]

Is this a good time to detail the thread by saying Carlie Cooper isn't very attractive?

[Bloxer]

No one takes classic Otto seriously. Updated versions with believable motivations like the 2018 video game version or Alfred Molina's performance in the classic trilogy have rightfully earned their spot in the zeitgeist, but classic Otto, was just a mean-spirited overcompensater. Thank God the movies bring in so much cash, because if the office had to rely on producing good comics to pay the bills...

Oh don't give me that bs.
Superior fans always try to go on this whole load about no one likes classic Ock and people like his movie version but no if that were true Ock wouldn't be one of Spider-Man's biggest villains and this superior crap wouldn't have happened to begin with.

And yet we can have 3 Peters and God knows how many duplicate characters running around. Yet somehow this would be breaking the bank. Hell it could even offer an interesting interaction when the 2 clashed.

Yeah don't try to put words in my mouth, some of those need to go away too, or get new gimmicks but currently they're just not as annoying and stupid as SpOck is, because at least their stories don't start with them killing a man and stealing his identity.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Most of the mourners at Elliot's funeral believe that he passed. Max's grief is very real.

He was outed as Doctor Octopus and Octopus is still at large, i.e. they all knew that Elliot never existed to start with and Doctor Octopus is alive.

As it was intended as a 12 issue series

No it wasn't. Superior Spider-Man was an ongoing. It was never announced as a planned 12 issue miniseries the way Tom King's new Batman/Catwoman series is, or Greg Rucka's Lois Lane series. Had the sales been stronger it would have been extended as in the case of Tom Taylor's FNSM.

Superior Spider-Man was launched with a tentative schedule but with a flexibility to extend if sales justified it. So it's right to call it a failure.

You're assuming that Hickman's motivations and feelings for SSM align with yours and that he's so petty and small-minded that he'd be openly contemptuous about it in a story.

I said that his story treated Superior Spider-Man with contempt not that Hickman had contempt for the story. What Hickman's feelings are towards the story is unknown. It's a fact, as per Donny Cates, that most writers at Marvel don't have time to read each other's stuff and mostly know about stuff in the books through personal meetings, conversations, writer's retreats, scripts and what the editors say. So most likely, Hickman didn't even read the story or followed it. Most writers at Marvel are busy with their stuff.

This is just the opinion of one fictional character about another.

It's presented in a serious dramatic scene so it's not something that's being presented as a joke or a pithy light-comedic thing.

In that context it comes across as sexist, makes Anna out to be a jerk friend to Peter, and comes across as creepy and resentful on the part of Gage to insert their opinions into the mouth of a character just to give Otto some brownie points.

[Prof. Warren]

Is this a good time to detail the thread by saying Carlie Cooper isn't very attractive?

By Peter's usual standards, maybe she isn't.

Is this why things really didn't work out with her and Betty and Deb Whitman? That they just weren't up to his measure of hotness?

I kid, course.

[Prof. Warren]

He was outed as Doctor Octopus and Octopus is still at large, i.e. they all knew that Elliot never existed to start with and Doctor Octopus is alive.

I believe it's the Elliot body that Ock killed that they're burying. And Max talks about Elliot's life being "thrown away by Dr. Octopus in some insane power game with the madman who bombed Horizon." so I feel that the story most believe now is that Elliot and Doc Ock are two different people. In the MU, I'm sure the truth is often lost with all the insanity that goes on. So most might now think that they outing was, in fact, a hoax in the first place. And I can see Anna and Emma trying to push the story that Elliot and Ock were two different people in order to let his time as Elliot remain untarnished.

No it wasn't. Superior Spider-Man was an ongoing. It was never announced as a planned 12 issue miniseries the way Tom King's new Batman/Catwoman series is, or Greg Rucka's Lois Lane series. Had the sales been stronger it would have been extended as in the case of Tom Taylor's FNSM.

Superior Spider-Man was launched with a tentative schedule but with a flexibility to extend if sales justified it. So it's right to call it a failure.

According to Gage, it was always intended to end at 12. They just weren't saying so upfront.

I said that his story treated Superior Spider-Man with contempt not that Hickman had contempt for the story. What Hickman's feelings are towards the story is unknown. It's a fact, as per Donny Cates, that most writers at Marvel don't have time to read each other's stuff and mostly know about stuff in the books through personal meetings, conversations, writer's retreats, scripts and what the editors say. So most likely, Hickman didn't even read the story or followed it. Most writers at Marvel are busy with their stuff.

And now you're just making assumptions about what Hickman did and didn't read.

It's presented in a serious dramatic scene so it's not something that's being presented as a joke or a pithy light-comedic thing.

In that context it comes across as sexist, makes Anna out to be a jerk friend to Peter, and comes across as creepy and resentful on the part of Gage to insert their opinions into the mouth of a character just to give Otto some brownie points.

Well, Otto did fall in love with Anna. So it's not giving him brownie points to give him credit for looking past her physical condition.

And Anna can still think that Peter makes a habit of running with beautiful women without it being an insult. After all, it's actually true.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I believe it's the Elliot body that Ock killed that they're burying. And Max talks about Elliot's life being "thrown away by Dr. Octopus in some insane power game with the madman who bombed Horizon." so I feel that the story most believe now is that Elliot and Doc Ock are two different people. In the MU, I'm sure the truth is often lost with all the insanity that goes on. So most might now think that they outing was, in fact, a hoax in the first place. And I can see Anna and Emma trying to push the story that Elliot and Ock were two different people in order to let his time as Elliot remain untarnished.

Otto announces it on camera to the media. In the issue. He said that the Superior Spider-Man farce is over.

According to Gage, it was always intended to end at 12. They just weren't saying so upfront.

A face-saving excuse given at the end. It's classic CYA.

And now you're just making assumptions about what Hickman did and didn't read.

Based on Donny Cates' own testimony about how Marvel writers work and interact. It's likely that he didn't read it or have time to do it. Slott pointed out that when Johnny Storm died briefly in Hickman's run (Pre-Superior), they collaborated to do a "mourning" story where Peter shows up in Hickman's title and vice-versa. He said that there was issues with characterization and language since Slott had a different ear for dialogue than Hickman's and that Tom Brevoort briefly pulled the issue when he found the dialogues didn't match and that Slott didn't synch up with Hickman and so on. So that doesn't suggest active engagement, on Hickman's part at least, with stuff in Slott's corner.

Well, Otto did fall in love with Anna.

It's impossible to fall in love with someone based on fraud. Otto's relationship with Anna happened by hijacking Peter's body. So there was no real love there.

So it's not giving him brownie points to give him credit...

He doesn't deserve any damn credit. After all Otto is demanding people to look past the fraud, the history of murder and terrorism, the whole metal arms thing, and being a general sociopath.

And Anna can still think that Peter makes a habit of running with beautiful women without it being an insult.

Not to prop up Otto she doesn't.

[SuperiorIronman]

I am very skeptical of the 12 issue timeline statement almost entirely because Marvel has lied about it before. Superior Spider-man was kind of a big deal for comics and still carries a lot of vitriol. Sales slumping would be more than enough to justify some people calling it a failure which could be seen as bad PR especially when your launching a dozen other spider books at the same time.

That being said if true having slept on it, I still find it a bad ending. Kind of the perfect storm of things spider readers generally hate and lovers of status-quo adore. At best I find this will go on to have a rather mixed reception (and this thread seems to show that's the case). It just kind of ends awkwardly when there are plenty of ways to satisfy both parties and they yet went with the one that satisfies nobody but those who really want to see Doctor Octopus reverted. I'm going to stick with my guns and keep it at a C+. The arc really should've done more justifying this.

[Agent Z]

Inequality is a real-world term about economic and class hardships. It has nothing whatsoever to do with who looks good. Otto Octavius was born in the middle-class and certainly had a better upbringing in money terms than Peter did, if not anywhere near Osborn's level.

Otto grew up as the son of a factory worker. I'd say his upbringing in money terms would be around Peter's level.

[Prof. Warren]

Otto announces it on camera to the media. In the issue. He said that the Superior Spider-Man farce is over.

Again, I imagine the truth is hard to pinpoint in the MU. After all, some people still believe that Steve Rogers is Hydra Cap.

Gage might elaborate on what's going on in an interview eventually but I do suspect that most now believe that Elliot was a victim of some larger scheme involving Ock and the Horizon bomber.

A face-saving excuse given at the end. It's classic CYA.

Or, the truth.

If you want to say that someone is just lying because what they're saying is not what you want to believe, that's not a great argument to make.

I don't think there's any reality to the idea that SSM was planned to go on and on indefinitely. All these side titles have short runs so it's completely reasonable that this was conceived to usher out SSM and that's it.

Given that there are surely plans afoot for classic Ock and that's why this book existed in the first place, it would have had to have out-sold Hickman's X-Men for there to be any thought of changing course.

Based on Donny Cates' own testimony about how Marvel writers work and interact. It's likely that he didn't read it or have time to do it. Slott pointed out that when Johnny Storm died briefly in Hickman's run (Pre-Superior), they collaborated to do a "mourning" story where Peter shows up in Hickman's title and vice-versa. He said that there was issues with characterization and language since Slott had a different ear for dialogue than Hickman's and that Tom Brevoort briefly pulled the issue when he found the dialogues didn't match and that Slott didn't synch up with Hickman and so on. So that doesn't suggest active engagement, on Hickman's part at least, with stuff in Slott's corner.

If you had a Hickman interview on the subject to refer to, you might have a case to make. But continually referring to what Cates said doesn't prove a case in regards to Hickman.

I imagine the two are very different people with very different habits.

As for Slott and Hickman having a different ear for dialogue, that's to be expected.

It's impossible to fall in love with someone based on fraud. Otto's relationship with Anna happened by hijacking Peter's body. So there was no real love there.

But there was. If all Anna was attracted to was Peter's looks, she would have still had feelings for Peter when the real Peter returned.

If love is about looking past appearances, Anna and Ock's relationship qualifies.

He doesn't deserve any damn credit. After all Otto is demanding people to look past the fraud, the history of murder and terrorism, the whole metal arms thing, and being a general sociopath.

No one would claim that Otto didn't remain an egomaniac the entire time.

Not to prop up Otto she doesn't.

Well, you can take it up with Anna. Oh wait, you can't. She not real.

Again, this is just a character talking. Her viewpoint causes no actual damage.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Again, I imagine the truth is hard to pinpoint in the MU.

The other explanation is that some people are incapable of accepting any criticism. They think Superior Spider-Man in both Slott and Gage's run is a flawless masterpiece from start to finish so any time people point out obvious plot holes, contrivances, dramatically hollow scenes and poor verisimilitude we get a laundry list of excuses.
-- The funeral is ridiculous for a guy who the mourners knew is still alive and is a fraud. Well it turns out that the MU doesn't operate on the same news length as we do. Apparently 18th and 19th Century speed of information flow is at operation here. Is this explanation given in the pages of the comic, no. Instead we must accept this as an article of faith from a few fans.
-- Point out Anna Maria's statement about Peter's love life is ridiculous and OOC, we get Soviet-style whataboutism comparing it to Aunt May and so on. (Never mind that Aunt May, who was presented as prejudiced to Anna Maria in Slott's own run and who raised Peter is probably who you might want to blame for Peter's supposedly shallow romantic life).
-- Point out that Gage's run was a sales failure. It was apparently intended to earn the exact number of comics it did, and it ending at 12 issues was a plan all along even if it wasn't announced as a maxi-series.

The kind of defenses offered by Slott's fans is worthy of a Trump administration spokesman.

Given that there are surely plans afoot for classic Ock and that's why this book existed in the first place, it would have had to have out-sold Hickman's X-Men for there to be any thought of changing course.

FNSM by Tom Taylor didn't sell out Hickman's HoXPoX but it got an extension. So I don't think that's a good argument at all. For that matter Dennis Hallum's PS4 game time in sold well enough that it got extended series that wasn't planned out because it did better than people expected. And better than Gage's Superior.

But there was. If all Anna was attracted to was Peter's looks, she would have still had feelings for Peter when the real Peter returned.

Then why does she care about who Peter dates then? Again that makes zero sense.

Again, this is just a character talking. Her viewpoint causes no actual damage.

Anna's character is the moral center in this series. For her to voice this, it comes from a place of privilege and as such causes dangers in legitimizing noxious and toxic ideas.

[Kurolegacy]

Yeah don't try to put words in my mouth, some of those need to go away too, or get new gimmicks but currently they're just not as annoying and stupid as SpOck is, because at least their stories don't start with them killing a man and stealing his identity.

And this story lacks any of that. Otto isn’t stealing Peter’s body or life in this case. Hell he even has Peter’s blessing in doing what he does. Far as I’m concerned, the main problems that came from the original volume were rectified in this one. It’s not the same story with the same failings. Hell I couldn’t stand the original story and even I found this volume to genuinely be good u til the last arc.

[Inversed]

I believe it's the Elliot body that Ock killed that they're burying. And Max talks about Elliot's life being "thrown away by Dr. Octopus in some insane power game with the madman who bombed Horizon." so I feel that the story most believe now is that Elliot and Doc Ock are two different people. In the MU, I'm sure the truth is often lost with all the insanity that goes on. So most might now think that they outing was, in fact, a hoax in the first place. And I can see Anna and Emma trying to push the story that Elliot and Ock were two different people in order to let his time as Elliot remain untarnished.

You're right about that, Superior Spider-Man being Otto was outed to the public, but only Anna, Emma, and Max knew that Elliot was Otto. So it was easy for them to throw the funeral and treat them as two separate people, because for all intents and purposes to everyone else, they were.

Also side note I wanted to say, I've always believed the idea of "status quo is God" is bull, because status quo is NEVER God. People like to say stories, especially comics, provide the illusion of change, but I would argue they also provide just as much an illusion of similarity. Anytime something is changed to fit to a "status quo", its never actually that, there's always some other wrench thrown in that causes it to be different than just traditional factory settings (this included).

Not to mention how everyone, editors, writers, fans, etc. have their own preferences for the "best" status quos, no matter what they are or how long they've been into effect, so its hard to say what is definitively "right" when everyone has different and sometimes conflicting opinions of status quos at once.

[Frontier]

She never said he was a bad guy, but come on, Peter is perfectly capable of being shallow or superficial. He's human.

Yeah, but insinuating he's like that when it comes to women is a very negative reading of the character.

He didn't get together with Mary Jane because she was hot, especially since the reason they weren't together in the early days was because he didn't agree with her personality. He only got with her when he got to know the real Mary Jane.

And if Felicia's attractiveness was the major factor in her relationship with Peter he wouldn't have been anywhere near as tough on her as he has been.

Not to mention that if Otto is so different he wouldn't have been as determined to get into MJ's pants after the bodyswap. He only stopped when he got a dose of responsibility and broke it off.