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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    It's not necessarily relevant. But, Animizuno argued the historical precedent. You then asked for sources and citations. Animizuno provided it. You doubted the work. I was only supporting a scholar I am familiar with and who's work is actually really stellar. It bugs me when people dismiss an academic's work without reading it - that's all.

    I don't particularly want, or don't want, to see male Amazons in WW. It would depend on the approach. And Mayor's work would be a solid basis for such a thing if someone did want to try it.
    It's a question of framing.

    If it's about "here we know more about the people that inspired the Amazons" I'm perfectly cool with that. And I'm sure there are elements there that could be used to embellish the Wonder Woman Amazons (I'm personally fond of Wonder Woman Amazons wearing trousers and patterned clothing, like on the ancient Greek vases).

    But that's not what AmiMizuno wrote. They wrote "we know the Amazons had sons and husbands". And there I had to protest. One is that it carries with it modern interpretations on family onto an ancient culture. Another is that modern historical research into a real-world people is used to justify changing the idea of the Amazons as expressed in Wonder Woman, as that of a near-utopian all-woman society.

    It feels like yet another attempt to force men into Wonder Woman's origin story. The Amazons of Wonder Woman are one step removed from the Amazons of Greek mythology, which in turn are one step removed from the real-world Scythian peoples.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean the fact some Greek myths shows us that Amazons also had a coed groups also shows it wouldn’t be out of line. Not only that but Scythian tribes did have men in them(not all but a few ). So it’s not like we are ruining Wonder Woman myths. It wouldn’t be a crazy thing to say that a few Amazons had gotten married or had sons. In some myths hey kept heir sons and raised them. Scythian also kept their children. We have found also other warrior women with men buried with them.

    All I’m saying is once they got to paradise island they had no men. I don’t think the Amazons Should be used for any male. Maybe Steve is from a male tribe the Amazons did use to know
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 11-22-2019 at 06:45 PM.

  3. #63
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    It's a question of framing.

    If it's about "here we know more about the people that inspired the Amazons" I'm perfectly cool with that. And I'm sure there are elements there that could be used to embellish the Wonder Woman Amazons (I'm personally fond of Wonder Woman Amazons wearing trousers and patterned clothing, like on the ancient Greek vases).

    But that's not what AmiMizuno wrote. They wrote "we know the Amazons had sons and husbands". And there I had to protest. One is that it carries with it modern interpretations on family onto an ancient culture. Another is that modern historical research into a real-world people is used to justify changing the idea of the Amazons as expressed in Wonder Woman, as that of a near-utopian all-woman society.

    It feels like yet another attempt to force men into Wonder Woman's origin story. The Amazons of Wonder Woman are one step removed from the Amazons of Greek mythology, which in turn are one step removed from the real-world Scythian peoples.
    I don't see that her origin needs men, and I can almost imagine an origin story, in which Etta washes up on the island, cutting the pulp-fantasy romance wit Steve, out of the picture, altogether. I don't see how throwing Steve or any man into the center of the origin story has made the WW comic, a better comic.

    If we want to create a place for men in the mythos, it need not be on Paradise Island. Again, ..I think Simone's Garagreans solve the problem, very well.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    What do you mean? Steve is a important? Etta wouldn't add anything. Steve needs to be here because the Amazons hate men(not all of them). Steve needs to be a part to break the lies many amazons have believed. Etta is a woman. They wouldn't really mind if Etta left or stayed. They would question why but not much.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I don't see that her origin needs men, and I can almost imagine an origin story, in which Etta washes up on the island, cutting the pulp-fantasy romance wit Steve, out of the picture, altogether. I don't see how throwing Steve or any man into the center of the origin story has made the WW comic, a better comic.

    If we want to create a place for men in the mythos, it need not be on Paradise Island. Again, ..I think Simone's Garagreans solve the problem, very well.
    I think you're putting up a strawman here.

    Of course you can tell a Wonder Woman origin story without Steve (like Leigh Bardugo did in Wonder Woman: Warbringer). But I think Steve's position in the Wonder Woman mythos is well-established, and should be respected.

    But note that Steve is part of Wonder Woman's story. He is not part of the Amazon story. And the more I think of it, the more I have come to believe that the idea of the Amazons as an all-female healthy society is key to any good treatment of Diana as a character.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay. How many people like the idea of the Garagreans? What if the Amazons and the Garagreans were at first peaceful but Ares created the Garagreans.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Meh. Still unwarranted and unnecessary.

    I'd rather see MUCH MORE exploration and development of the Amazons as characters before any Manazons are ever revealed or introduced (again.) There's plenty of opportunity to create drama with them without some sort of opposite number society/civilization being shown as opposition to them.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Meh. Still unwarranted and unnecessary.

    I'd rather see MUCH MORE exploration and development of the Amazons as characters before any Manazons are ever revealed or introduced (again.) There's plenty of opportunity to create drama with them without some sort of opposite number society/civilization being shown as opposition to them.
    What would you want? I honestly would like it if some did expression to Hippolyta they wanted children or wanted to see if the outside world changed. I would like the Amazons to be tech advance. That to an outsider their tech looks ancient but it's advance. Like the global system in bloodlines. The purple healing ray or the prison system.

  9. #69
    Spectacular Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    I'm not interested in male Amazons. I am very interested, however, in the prospect of transgender women Amazons--and the Amazons' entire philosophy/sociology/cultural ethos on gender in that regard.
    Author of the upcoming novel, The Prophets, from Putnam Books (January 2021)

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean in anicent culture women dressing up like women were a thing. But for the most part seen as pagan acts. What would the amazons think about that? Maybe a little more traditonal.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I mean in anicent culture women dressing up like women were a thing. But for the most part seen as pagan acts. What would the amazons think about that? Maybe a little more traditonal.
    The more history and mythology I've read, the more I've come to realise that social mores are really varied, and can change or evolve in unexpected ways. To take my favourite example, do not assume that since we are more open-minded about sex and gender roles than England of the 19th century, that things were more repressive or hidebound in earlier times.

    History is much more like a spiral than a line.

    Greek society was famously patriarchal and misogynistic (with some exceptions—there are always exceptions). But the Amazon society was not Greek. It's only the few written records of it that are Greek.

    Also, the DC Amazons are hugely removed from both the mythological Amazons, even more the real historical groups that inspired the myths and art (whoever they were). To me, the DC Amazons are based on doing a feminist reimagining of Greek mythology. History and mythology should be treated as inspiration rather than as guidelines.

    To that I'd add that descriptions are rather weak as world-building goes. Stories are much more powerful. That's why I think Diana's answer to the trans woman in Earth One was rather weak. It sounds nice, except for people who are used to systematic exclusion and suppression. Much stronger to tell a story.

    Like, having a retelling of Achilles in the Trojan War, but from the Amazon point of view, where Achilles was a trans woman. One can keep the main story beats, but still put in a wildly different interpretation of the characters and events.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The one thing that hasn't been tried is what that Roy Thomas story gave us, with Captain Wonder, ..and that is a straight up male interpretation of Wonder Woman's power and costume. Without the iconography of Wonder Woman, I don't think a male Amazon will make much of an impact ..or have any point.

    A great follow up of George Perezs Hercules story might have been to see him surrender himself and his strength to the Amazons and submit to complete and total retraining, in the Amazon ways. Through this training, he would have become the first male Amazon and first, official male, superhuman ally to the Wonder Family. I think the conversion of Hercules to Amazonism would have been a great fulfillment of the Amazon ideal...that it truly can transform anyone.

    I think the introduction of a male Amazon needs to be relevant to the Amazon mythos, somehow. If the Amazons were charged with training and caring for Captain Wonder, this poor, newborn, ectoplasmic monster, born of Doctor Psychos evil experiment, that might be a surprising way to illustrate their compassionate side. They would have complete responsibility for him, and they would be all he had in the world...a weird, quirky Frankenstein fantasy.

    A story about a male Amazon and why the Amazon's would justify creating one should result in the intro of a new superhero ally for Diana, I think. He can't be just some dude hanging out on the Island, sexing up the other Amazons.

    It would show them doing something, besides hacking and murdering something.
    I absolutely don't mind Captain Wonder cleverly making a return to the mythos (and I've been working on him in my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee), but I never really considered him an Amazon per se.

    Your Heracles idea is interesting and one I'd enjoy seeing explored, but I'd go an alternate route with him and make him a villain and eventually, perhaps, make him an adversary in conflict. Heracles could be a good representation of masculinity and how it's changed (or hasn't) over time and he's someone who can go toe-to-toe with Diana and other top strata physically powerful heroes and villains. (Diana needs a few more of those.) And I kinda would be interested in seeing a DC Heracles who is different than the Marvel Hercules. There's also some family and sibling rivalry if they don't go back to Diana's clay origin and some fun weirdness of your brother once fought and dated and romanced and betrayed your mother and your people before you were ever around drama. I mean, that's A LOT. Lol.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think some writer needs to revisit Thalarion and the Gargareans.

    Thalarion, an H. P. Lovecraft creation, as reimagined by Gail Simone, is classical Greek myth's Isle of Heroes, ..most famously referred to in the myth of Achilles. [Hardcore WW fans should take notes.] While Thalarion originated in a Lovecraft short story, The White Ship, the Isle of Heroes or the White Isle is a legitimate part of Greek mythology and, as such, could be a respected part of the DC Comics Amazon mythos. Furthermore, as Simone's Warkiller story merges the mythological heroes of the White Isle AND the Gargareans into the same all-male society, ..WW writers are presented with a great opportunity to give us the impossible: male Amazons!

    Think about it...the Amazon sons would claim the greatest, most famous heroes of Greek mythology for their fathers - Achilles, Theseus, Odysseus! A retrofitting of Prince Jason's story could work in summers spent on Thalarion, training with Hercules and the other heroes ..and their young sons. Braving its contests and mysterious rites of passage! Marveling at the technology, engineered by their scientists! Wandering the grand, crystal citadels and haunted, white beaches of the island...sailing rivers of liquid GOLD! This would be the everyday life of the average MALE Amazon...

    Wow!

    Lovecraft's story has the island haunted by ghosts, elemental and other spirits, and Simone elaborates that they are the spirits of the Greek heroes. Might one of those other spirits be Mister Genie? Might an Amazon boy, after finding him on the island, have been granted a wish...to be a living comet? Might that same Amazon boy, granted his wish, have travelled to a parallel Earth, where he fought evil, ..as Wonder Boy?

    Might Prince Hippolytos -now, King Virbius- once condemned to death, by his father, Theseus, for a crime he didn't commit, have visited his dead father on Thalarion...forgiving him, before returning to the enchanted forests of Roman Latium?

    Thalarion is a way to occasionally (occasionally) sprinkle the Wonderverse, with male Amazons, without touching Paradise Island.

    Again, ..I don't think male Amazons should just pop up, after so many years, without them. There must be a great story that justifies their introduction into the Wonderverse, ..and some editors, who care enough to see it all through.
    This is really interesting and I hadn't read very much about the Lovecraftian version. Thanks!

    I'm still a "no" on needing a male Amazon-like society at this time, but this is the strongest argument for one, for me, yet in how one could work in the Wonder mythos. You've got my creativity working on it.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    I'm not interested in male Amazons. I am very interested, however, in the prospect of transgender women Amazons--and the Amazons' entire philosophy/sociology/cultural ethos on gender in that regard.
    This. This would be some fascinating storytelling that mirrors what we need to learn and understand about transgender people in our society. And, it'd be an extremely Wonder Woman-y thing to explore.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Some interesting arguments and desires for an opposite number Amazon-like society composed solely of men. I'm still not sold on it, because there are other things (gender identity, sexuality, etc.) that I'd like to see explored between the Amazons and Patriarch's World that don't necessitate having an all-male mirror society of sorts.

    (If I'm honest, I'd rather see some thing like this interestingly and thoughtfully play out with the Green Lanterns and Zamorans and their leaders, considering the longstanding setup of the Guardians and Zamarons for decades. I don't think I've ever read a story about Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus with them that tackled that idea, unpacked it, dismantled it, broke it apart, and came to an interesting, let alone warranted, conclusion about some strict men vs women construct.)

    While I'm not a huge fan of Jason as he is now, I'd like to see Warkiller and a new Wonder Boy join the cast, especially if we ever get Donna and Cassie back into the Wonder fold more regularly. I might change Warkiller's origin a bit, but I really haven't tackled it yet to know if I could. I'd be more interested in a kid who learns about the Amazons and their ways and who decides to emulate them and falls into an adventure with Diana and eventually becomes Wonder Boy. (And I've got a couple of ideas of how to approach this individual.)

    Past that, I'd have Captain Wonder around as villain and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Heracles running around as Wonder Man and/or Champion and as a villain or adversary in conflict. I've also developed an entire team of new heroes and characters for the Wonder Mythos in my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee that skews male, but is not wholly cis-male in membership, that can explore some of the topics we're discussing in this thread.

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