Did Peter accidentally kill Gwen?

[WebSlingWonder]

A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me. Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before? Oh, I know: it's to absolve Peter of the accidental murder of his girlfriend. That story is compelling and created a lot of guilt for Peter. Without that element, it becomes just another "villain kills my loved one" story, you know?

(On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)

[Lukmendes]

A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me. Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before? Oh, I know: it's to absolve Peter of the accidental murder of his girlfriend. That story is compelling and created a lot of guilt for Peter. Without that element, it becomes just another "villain kills my loved one" story, you know?

(On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)

Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.

[bob.schoonover]

Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.

Honestly, the "Peter accidentally killing her" seems more like the No Prize solution to the entirely insane idea that she died from being in free fall.

[Scott Taylor]

Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.

This. Its right there in Conway's original story. She was dead already. People die during falls, it happens.

Did anyone ever do an autopsy to determine cause of death?

[Mister Mets]

Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.

The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon. It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.

[Lukmendes]

This. Its right there in Conway's original story. She was dead already. People die during falls, it happens.

Did anyone ever do an autopsy to determine cause of death?

Don't think there was ever any.

The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon. It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.

Yeah, the snap is in the original version, but they still have conversations happening like she died because of the fall, the snap was just conveniently used to retcon and say it wasn't the fall, it was the sudden stop.

And yeah, logically it's the better explanation (Even then, you have to ignore other, identical situations where they followed comic book logic instead of real life logic), doesn't change the fact the original intent was something else, which was my point.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I kind of think that dialogues and plot counts for more than sound effects. Especially written in sound effects.

To me this is analogous to Blade Runner where the screenplay, actors and everyone on set agreed that Harrison Ford was human but late in production Ridley Scott tried to add in the idea that Ford’s character is a replicant even if it went against the entire logic of the movie.

[KurtW95]

It should not matter because she should be brought back.

[Shunt]

Don't think there was ever any.

This. Even accepting the remote chance of dying from a heart attack caused by the stress of falling, Gwen should have been alive for a few minutes at least. Conway was just a victim/contributor of a pervasive myth with no basis whatsoever.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon.

"The fall would have killed anyone" as Goblin said is also in the original issue. And Conway said that he added that sound effect in the final stages after submitting his scripts and not altering the existing story to fit that in.

It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.

In so far as Gwen's death is an example of real physics interjected into comics...the fall killing Gwen is still better in terms of subversion than the web snap.

Likewise, Gwen was rammed off the bridge by Goblin at top speed on his glider, so it's like she got hit by a motorcycle at full speed then bumped into the air right away.

[Mister Mets]

"The fall would have killed anyone" as Goblin said is also in the original issue. And Conway said that he added that sound effect in the final stages after submitting his scripts and not altering the existing story to fit that in.



In so far as Gwen's death is an example of real physics interjected into comics...the fall killing Gwen is still better in terms of subversion than the web snap.

Likewise, Gwen was rammed off the bridge by Goblin at top speed on his glider, so it's like she got hit by a motorcycle at full speed then bumped into the air right away.

The sound effect remains in the original comic, and it was something Conway selected. It's not a retcon, as much as a comic book that had two explanations, one of which makes a lot more sense based on our understanding of physics and biology.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The sound effect remains in the original comic, and it was something Conway selected.

Written-in sound effects in comics do not count for more than actual surface-level dialogue, character beats, and plot points.

It's not a retcon, as much as a comic book that had two explanations,

One of which directly contradicts the other, and one of which is privileged by the characters and story as the real explanation: i.e. Goblin killed Gwen when he rammed her off the bridge.

Compare this to Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1. I don't care for that story myself and it's a good thing that it's been by-and-large quietly ignored and downplayed over the decades but Christopher Priest wrote that story and followed through there the idea of Peter accidentally killing someone.

one of which makes a lot more sense based on our understanding of physics and biology.

Which means zilch in terms of dramatic storytelling. The story can't treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer and killer and blame Spider-Man for Gwen's death at the same time. The story we have (ASM #121-122) clearly goes with the first choice and that's what counts.

"Understanding of physics and biology" means nothing in superhero comics and it's always a way for a writer putting the thumbs on the scales and as such it's never going to be satisfying. Which is probably why it's done in such a half-assed way there.

Based on such an understanding, there's no way Batman can be non-lethal for instance, all those aggressive punches and kicks, violent weapons such as batarangs and other devices he uses just would absolutely have to have killed people and caused collateral damage over the years (which is why moviemakers like Tim Burton and Zack Snyder have him openly kill people). The Punisher would absolutely have killed an innocent bystander with a stray bullet or ricochet (there's an actual mandate forbidding this in comics).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me.

That's NOT a retcon. That was in the actual story itself. And that's the official explanation.

Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before?

Goblin wanted to torture and torment Peter by making him believe he could have saved Gwen, only to rub it in his face that he never had a chance. That's even more cruel.

(On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)

It's NOT a lot. Only Slott's Clone Conspiracy runs with that...and that's even more ridiculous anyway.

Honestly, the "Peter accidentally killing her" seems more like the No Prize solution to the entirely insane idea that she died from being in free fall.

According to Conway it was a total accident.

Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know — I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."
-- Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

To me the idea that Gwen got her web snapped by Peter runs counter to the story and overall direction of the arc. If Gwen's death is a result of Spider-Man's incompetence then that means Peter and many writers after him are wrong to blame the Green Goblin for her death...and the entire rage and emotion in ASM#122 is unearned and unmerited...which is obviously not what Conway believes and not what anyone believes. The story continues to treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer. Green Goblin killed Gwen, Gwen died because Peter accidentally killed her. Both of these things cannot be true.

As such to me "the fall killed her" offered by the story is the best explanation and in real-world physics it checks out.

Likewise, there's the problem that Peter repeatedly yanked people mid-fall multiple times before and after that story and all of them survived.

Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg
Gwen Snap Spidey 2 - ASM #232.jpg
Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

The first one is from the Lee-Romita era (you can see the distinct 4-Rectangle Panel that JRSr used, the second one is from ASM #232 by Stern/JRJR, and the third is from the Michelinie era, ASM#362, by Bagley). The latter one has Peter using his webs to save a baby...and I should think that if a tiny child's soft neck survived that, then Gwen's neck couldn't have snapped just because Peter used his webs. There's actually more. You have an instance of this in BACK IN BLACK but there's a limit of 3 images per upload.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You know what? A deeper explanation would be wasted here.

Yeah, that much is true. Gwen died because she died. Conway wanted to dramatize it so that you think at the last possible minute that Spider-Man could have saved her. The operating intent was that sometimes no matter what you do, you can't save everyone (cue that Spider-Ham moment from ITSV). There was nothing Peter could have done to save her. Goblin threw her from a great height while she was unconscious (and as such in no control to make her body "go limp"), if Spider-Man tries to catch her via diving and then webs and cushions it (as it happens in a lot of other scenarios), it will be too late anyway since her drop velocity would have killed her before then. The other option is to let her fall in the water and then jump in and save her from drowning but same problem. There's one famous example of someone jumping off a NYC bridge and surviving (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_...bridge_jumper)), albeit he was conscious.

The main thing is Peter tried, he did his best, and he failed...and he didn't have a chance. That's what the situation tries to convey.

[SuperiorIronman]

Under Good Samaritan law in New York (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), Spider-man would be legally free of the death of Gwen Stacy due to the attempt at saving her life. Sure she still died, but Spider-man was acting in good faith that he could save her.

Norman legally would still count for the kill given he is the one who initiated the situation with the intent to do harm.

Spider-man would face other charges but murder of Gwen Stacy is not one of them.