Did Peter accidentally kill Gwen?

[MyriVerse]

Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know — I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."
-- Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

To me the idea that Gwen got her web snapped by Peter runs counter to the story and overall direction of the arc. If Gwen's death is a result of Spider-Man's incompetence then that means Peter and many writers after him are wrong to blame the Green Goblin for her death...and the entire rage and emotion in ASM#122 is unearned and unmerited...which is obviously not what Conway believes and not what anyone believes. The story continues to treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer. Green Goblin killed Gwen, Gwen died because Peter accidentally killed her. Both of these things cannot be true.

Goblin would still be to blame for her murder, regardless of what Spidey did.

Someone needs to inform Mark Waid about this. Because his "history" blames Peter and not Goblin.

You don't seem to be reading that caption correctly. It pins the blame on Goblin, even if Spidey accelerated it.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Goblin would still be to blame for her murder, regardless of what Spidey did.

If there was something else Spider-Man could have done in that moment other than stop her body with his webs...and Gwen would have lived...then that means that Spider-Man has culpability. That it happened because of his incompetence. There are a number of AU where Peter saves Gwen by either diving after her and catching her body mid-fall and then webbing away, cushioning her fall with multiple webs and so on. There's at least two What-If where it's done that way. And obviously a number of creators believe that the takeaway is Peter killed Gwen. Donny Cates is one. Al Ewing is probably another (https://www.cbr.com/marvel-valkyrie-...th-gwen-stacy/). There's also that bit during CIVIL WAR where apparently Tony implies behind Peter's back in a conversation with another character that if Spider-Man had training, then he could have saved Gwen.

So clearly there's a number of creators who do think Peter and not Goblin is responsible for Gwen's death. I don't happen to agree obviously but it's kind of ridiculous to claim people don't have that view.

You don't seem to be reading that caption correctly. It pins the blame on Goblin, even if Spidey accelerated it.

Nope it says clearly: "The Green Goblin kidnapped his girlfriend, Gwen Stacy. During their battle, Stacy fell from a great height and Spider-Man's attempt to save her only accelerated her death."

The captions only says Goblin kidnapped Gwen. Which again proves how much Mark Waid misrepresents history he claims to know so much.

Because Gwen did not "fall from a great height", she was rammed off the bridge deliberately:

Gwen Snap Spidey 6 - Goblin rams Gwen off bridge.jpg

And before anyone argues I am being semantic and pedantic...let me remind everyone that it's a major plot point in ASM #122 about Gwen's murder is phrased.

Gwen Snap Spidey 7 - Goblin-Peter 'Dead-You killed her'.jpg

Goblin says that Gwen Stacy is Dead, but Peter reminds him, "She didn't just die. You killed her".

So it's amazing how creators shifting the blame of Gwen's death away from Peter are more or less marks of Goblin's own gaslighting.

[bob.schoonover]

Even if the sudden stop of the fall broke Gwen's neck, I think Spider-Man is more accountable of the death of Captain Stacy, since his gizmo made Octopus lose control over his mechanical arms, than Gwen's. The death of Gwen Stacy is only in the Green Goblin's hands

This one always bothered me. Peter should have known that flailing limbs would be a danger (even if they were perhaps less of an overall danger than Octopus on the loose, giant flailing metal tubes are generally dangerous).

As to the Gwen part, it's pretty simple: (A) Norman pushed Gwen off the bridge, (B) the consequence of which would have been her death without heroic intervention; (C) Peter attempted such intervention, but (D) failed. You can list any number of ways in which you think he failed - he didn't put Norman down for good earlier, he didn't tell his friends Norman was a psychotic supervillain and everyone should be on the lookout, he should have shot multiple webs to better support Gwen's whole body, he should have tried to catch her more quickly, etc. - but none of them really change (B), even the utterly insane "her heart gave out because she was scared" idea (and no, falling doesn't kill people generally or all parachuting events would look the 35th issue of 52). Peter's culpability - how responsible is he for actions that led to Norman being loose and Gwen not being prepared for him - is possibly more interesting, but he didn't kill Gwen in any legal, moral, or scientific sense.

[SuperiorIronman]

Assuming Spider-man fell under Good Samaritan law in New York he would be free of that particular charge assuming that's accurate. Norman was the one who put Gwen in harm's way with Spider-man as far as we know the only one who could possibly have intervened. His failing to save her by way of the web snapping her neck means little when there is a reasonable chance she would've died upon hitting the water anyways. Goblin had malicious intent and knew the risks of placing her in danger therefore while Spider-man intervened and failed, that's why we have Good Samaritan laws as if something does happen you cannot also blame the person making the rescue. It's to allow those who feel they can act to act without fear of reprisal. With Spider-man the only other capable rescuer at the scene the rescue would fall to him.

Spider-man could be seen as an accessory to the death but it's doubtful that would ever hold up considering Spider-man doesn't have malicious intent though you could given the speed of the situation say he was involved in her involuntary manslaughter. Spider-man has performed this same maneuver before and since so it's possible he could be charged with her death even if Goblin had initiated the situation with the attempt to harm.

[Lukmendes]

Even if the sudden stop of the fall broke Gwen's neck, I think Spider-Man is more accountable of the death of Captain Stacy, since his gizmo made Octopus lose control over his mechanical arms, than Gwen's. The death of Gwen Stacy is only in the Green Goblin's hands

This one always bothered me. Peter should have known that flailing limbs would be a danger (even if they were perhaps less of an overall danger than Octopus on the loose, giant flailing metal tubes are generally dangerous).

Well, Spidey got his ass handed to him in their previous battle, that was just his attempt at stopping him.

Even then, I wouldn't put the blame of George's death on him, we had a bunch of dumbass civilians staying near that battle, then the arms hit a chimney, and George willingly takes a risk to save a kid.

[bob.schoonover]

Well, Spidey got his ass handed to him in their previous battle, that was just his attempt at stopping him.

Even then, I wouldn't put the blame of George's death on him, we had a bunch of dumbass civilians staying near that battle, then the arms hit a chimney, and George willingly takes a risk to save a kid.

I guess I should elaborate and say, I believe that Peter should have known better than to create a device that renders the arms erratic without considering its use. In this specific incident, the problem was falling debris (and yes, that kid's mom was pretty negligent), but if they'd faced off inside a building the arms may have knocked the whole building down, or shot out a window and speared a passerby. It's holding him to a high standard, sure, but it's somewhat equivalent to disabling the steering wheel of a car driven by a deranged hit-and-run driver. Yes, you need to get him off the street to stop hurting people, but if your only option is disabling the steering and not, say, the engine, then you shouldn't implement that right next to a park full of kids.

[Snoop Dogg]

Comic panels work via cause and effect. Action and reaction. Even if they didn't want to imply that the web broke her neck, the web broke her neck because they put the snap effect on the printed page in response to the cause, the web. Intent no longer matters, it is not implicit. The web killed her, but Peter is not her killer.

The thing about Stacy's death is that it is not a classical Spider-Man death where he fails in some key way. It is a routine encounter against a frequent foe that he actually came to with a plan and a new tactic. He was doing it right. Even the villain didn't turn the tables or capitalize on anything. It was a freak accident that happened because stuff happens. Welcome to the job!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The web killed her, but Peter is not her killer.

That makes no logical sense. Unless it was Goblin who used the webs to whack her the way Bullseye tends to use Daredevil's club to kill people.

If Peter is not her killer then it can't be the web that killed her.

It is a routine encounter against a frequent foe that he actually came to with a plan and a new tactic. He was doing it right. Even the villain didn't turn the tables or capitalize on anything. It was a freak accident that happened because stuff happens.

Yeah. The point is that Peter did what anyone in his situation would have done, any superhero in his situation, and it didn't work.

But that issue gets drowned when you have Iron Man telling in one comic that if Peter trained then he could have saved her...which is come to think of it a fair analogy to the "good guy with a gun" idea. The idea is people can't accept "what it's like to lose...to feel so desperately that you are right and yet to fail all the same".

[Snoop Dogg]

oh the second paragraph is about george sorry

[Revolutionary_Jack]

oh the second paragraph is about george sorry

Well it still applies. Captain Stacy died because Peter did the right thing, and did what he always did against supervillains. You can argue that the devices he built to counter Vulture and other could have backfired horrifically too. It was an accident, albeit I would argue that Doctor Octopus is the prime culprit. I wouldn't blame King Kong responsible for the people he kills in his rampage across New York since obviously it didn't want to come there and wanted to be in Skull Island, but human sentient beings brought him there. Doctor Octopus isn't King Kong...he's a rational actor who uses his abilities for malicious intent and caused terrorist actions, so agency rests with him.

That said, the emotional effect and overall guilt/responsibility Captain Stacy's death and Gwen's death are framed as being tragic in different ways.

For Captain Stacy, his death is a major blow to Peter because he represents (more than Gwen) the passing of the easy way. If George lived, Peter wouldn't have to worry about the law, wouldn't have to worry about Gwen hating Spider-Man (since Daddy would talk her around), and wouldn't have to worry about being unacceptable and freaky since an authority figure was backing him. The horrible fact is George Stacy conveyed that to Peter on his deathbed, telling him he's proud of Peter and approves of him...the validation Peter wanted all his life, but it's coming just when it's going away for good. That's fabulously cruel from a dramatic perspective...equivalent to learning that you won the lottery from the numbers of the ticket you just burnt.

Whereas when Gwen died, it happened in a way that confirmed the nature of their relationship, i.e unresolved, with many secrets and no honesty conveyed, and remaining a major "What if". George Stacy is a "What would" i.e. a definite sense of what would happen if he lived...so it's more tragic and a greater loss in that sense.

[Mister Mets]

Pretty convenient freak accident.

How so?

Someone needs to inform Mark Waid about this. Because his "history" blames Peter and not Goblin.

Attachment 88765

Waid's History of the Marvel Universe said that it accelerated the death, which doesn't mean Peter is more to blame than Norman is.

[Lukmendes]

I guess I should elaborate and say, I believe that Peter should have known better than to create a device that renders the arms erratic without considering its use. In this specific incident, the problem was falling debris (and yes, that kid's mom was pretty negligent), but if they'd faced off inside a building the arms may have knocked the whole building down, or shot out a window and speared a passerby. It's holding him to a high standard, sure, but it's somewhat equivalent to disabling the steering wheel of a car driven by a deranged hit-and-run driver. Yes, you need to get him off the street to stop hurting people, but if your only option is disabling the steering and not, say, the engine, then you shouldn't implement that right next to a park full of kids.

Spidey didn't purposedly choose a location where someone could get killed, the top of that building was the best one he had available, and he had to use it otherwise Otto would keep kicking his ass, so it's not an equivalent of doing it in a park full of kids, he chose a location that was relatively away from civilians, actually tried to stop Otto once the arms went erratic, but couldn't, and they hit a chimney that just happened to be nearby, and dumbass civilians decided to be near the battle instead of away from it, it's really out of his control, sure, Spidey can be indirectly blamed for it since he caused it to begin with, but you can't predict what's going to happen in a battle, and he did it to try to stop Otto as soon as he could find him since Otto being around having his plans is way more dangerous than one minute of erratic robotic arms.

[AlexCampy89]

yes, Peter accidentally broke her neck.
That was the original plan and that's why the "snap!" sound appears near Gwen's death.

* Gwen wasn't dead before the fall simply because Peter held her, and well, despite adrenaline and all, you can clearly recognize/feel the difference between a dead body (cold, doesn't breath, stiff, etc) and an unconscious one.

*The fall itself (or falling shock) didn't kill Gwen because she was unconscious, so Norman is wrong.

* Heck, even the name of the bridge was wrong.


A few months/years later all the authors, editors and artists involved in the story gave a different version, some of them clearly backpedaled their instance for several reasons (death threats, historical importance of the story, every author trying to bring water to their mill, misremembering, etc).

I don't believe that the "snap!" sound was added by mistake or as a joke or as a subconscious bullshit. It's too much of a "well thought, well put" situation to be just a coincidence or something unwanted/misunderstood.

I know that Lee, Conway, Romita and Kane always had a different retelling of the events, and I don't want to call them liars either, but I don't believe their version of the facts.


Ironically, during Civil War, Iron Man mentions to Peter that "with the Registration act and a formal training, Gwen Stacy would still be alive" (non verbatim quote), implying that Peter wasn't capable of saving her, making the situation worse, rather than failing in saving her due to simple incompetence or inexperience.


Personally, I'd stick with the "Peter accidentally broke Gwen's neck while trying to rescue her" version. It makes more sense with the bitter, dark and dramatic tone of the story, it is the most commonly accepted version of the events and it's the base for the wonderful Marvel's Knights saga, in which Peter actually *improves* and saves Mary Jane in the same situation.

[Rosebunse]

I mean, the truth is, in the heat of the moment, Peter probably did do something that he will always regret, which was trying to save her with one line of webbing.

That being said, she wouldn't have been there without Norman Osborn and Peter would never have been in that position without Norman Osborn.

[jetengine]

Waids page literally says "Accelerated" which implies it was going to happen anyway, he merely sped it up.