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  1. #1
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Default Did Peter accidentally kill Gwen?

    A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me. Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before? Oh, I know: it's to absolve Peter of the accidental murder of his girlfriend. That story is compelling and created a lot of guilt for Peter. Without that element, it becomes just another "villain kills my loved one" story, you know?

    (On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me. Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before? Oh, I know: it's to absolve Peter of the accidental murder of his girlfriend. That story is compelling and created a lot of guilt for Peter. Without that element, it becomes just another "villain kills my loved one" story, you know?

    (On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)
    Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.
    Honestly, the "Peter accidentally killing her" seems more like the No Prize solution to the entirely insane idea that she died from being in free fall.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me.
    That's NOT a retcon. That was in the actual story itself. And that's the official explanation.

    Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before?
    Goblin wanted to torture and torment Peter by making him believe he could have saved Gwen, only to rub it in his face that he never had a chance. That's even more cruel.

    (On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)
    It's NOT a lot. Only Slott's Clone Conspiracy runs with that...and that's even more ridiculous anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Honestly, the "Peter accidentally killing her" seems more like the No Prize solution to the entirely insane idea that she died from being in free fall.
    According to Conway it was a total accident.

    Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
    Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know ó I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."
    -- Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

    To me the idea that Gwen got her web snapped by Peter runs counter to the story and overall direction of the arc. If Gwen's death is a result of Spider-Man's incompetence then that means Peter and many writers after him are wrong to blame the Green Goblin for her death...and the entire rage and emotion in ASM#122 is unearned and unmerited...which is obviously not what Conway believes and not what anyone believes. The story continues to treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer. Green Goblin killed Gwen, Gwen died because Peter accidentally killed her. Both of these things cannot be true.

    As such to me "the fall killed her" offered by the story is the best explanation and in real-world physics it checks out.

    Likewise, there's the problem that Peter repeatedly yanked people mid-fall multiple times before and after that story and all of them survived.

    Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg
    Gwen Snap Spidey 2 - ASM #232.jpg
    Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

    The first one is from the Lee-Romita era (you can see the distinct 4-Rectangle Panel that JRSr used, the second one is from ASM #232 by Stern/JRJR, and the third is from the Michelinie era, ASM#362, by Bagley). The latter one has Peter using his webs to save a baby...and I should think that if a tiny child's soft neck survived that, then Gwen's neck couldn't have snapped just because Peter used his webs. There's actually more. You have an instance of this in BACK IN BLACK but there's a limit of 3 images per upload.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Honestly, the "Peter accidentally killing her" seems more like the No Prize solution to the entirely insane idea that she died from being in free fall.
    I guess they were following the possibilities of people who died falling, though this is a rumor at best, can only see that killing people with weak hearts, something that never seemed to be a problem Gwen had.

    But regardless of the case, I find her death to be stupid, pretty sure there were like at least 2 situations before Gwen where Spidey saved someone from the same situation and they were fine, but Gwen dies because... Because? Meh lol.

    It'd be more acceptable if Norman threw her, super strength could make that much of a difference (Well, if he has it, early ASM was kinda vague on whether or not Green Goblin had super strength), but she was just pushed by the glider, maybe the glider could've done damage too, but didn't look like the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Exactly my point. In fact my first read of that issue was that. That she was pregnant from Eddie but never told him and was dissuaded even more by Venom bonding with her. But no, I re-read it again and it was indeed the case that the Symbiote somehow impregnated her. Charging a scene that didn't have it before with a rape undertone. Think about it, really, Venom RAPED Anne for no reason. Literally no reason.

    The lying thing was...I mean...Jeez. Really. How he managed to demonize the Symbiote from years after years of having his entire run with Flash devoted to showing how Venom wasn't evil, how it was just bad hosts not allowing the Symbiote to be the hero it wanted to be. Bam. All gone. Even if Venom legit gaslighted him like that, he should have revealed it as soon as it got the chance. I don't know...I really don't like how he writes their relationship at times. It's just too toxic. There wasn't anything to touch there but he just shoehorned the drama
    And while Cates is doing all of that, he's trying to make Eddie sound like he's a victim of circumstance, not an asshole who was pissed at the world and willingly joined the symbiote and was just as responsible for their bad actions.

    Not to mention that the symbiote gaslighting to bond with someone is out of character, he either bonds peacefully, or forcefully, never showed the desire to do it by fooling the person.

    It sounds like Cates wants to tell a story about Eddie without Venom, so he made the symbiote into a different kind of asshole for that so they have a reason to separate, and that's eh.

    Edit: Geez I take too long to write replies, 3 more were made while I was writing my own lol.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    You know what? A deeper explanation would be wasted here.
    Yeah, that much is true. Gwen died because she died. Conway wanted to dramatize it so that you think at the last possible minute that Spider-Man could have saved her. The operating intent was that sometimes no matter what you do, you can't save everyone (cue that Spider-Ham moment from ITSV). There was nothing Peter could have done to save her. Goblin threw her from a great height while she was unconscious (and as such in no control to make her body "go limp"), if Spider-Man tries to catch her via diving and then webs and cushions it (as it happens in a lot of other scenarios), it will be too late anyway since her drop velocity would have killed her before then. The other option is to let her fall in the water and then jump in and save her from drowning but same problem. There's one famous example of someone jumping off a NYC bridge and surviving (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_...bridge_jumper)), albeit he was conscious.

    The main thing is Peter tried, he did his best, and he failed...and he didn't have a chance. That's what the situation tries to convey.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    I really hated the revelation that Curt Connors has always been in control of the Lizard. That one's been largely ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's NOT a retcon. That was in the actual story itself. And that's the official explanation.



    Goblin wanted to torture and torment Peter by making him believe he could have saved Gwen, only to rub it in his face that he never had a chance. That's even more cruel.



    It's NOT a lot. Only Slott's Clone Conspiracy runs with that...and that's even more ridiculous anyway.



    According to Conway it was a total accident.

    Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
    Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know — I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."
    -- Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

    To me the idea that Gwen got her web snapped by Peter runs counter to the story and overall direction of the arc. If Gwen's death is a result of Spider-Man's incompetence then that means Peter and many writers after him are wrong to blame the Green Goblin for her death...and the entire rage and emotion in ASM#122 is unearned and unmerited...which is obviously not what Conway believes and not what anyone believes. The story continues to treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer. Green Goblin killed Gwen, Gwen died because Peter accidentally killed her. Both of these things cannot be true.

    As such to me "the fall killed her" offered by the story is the best explanation and in real-world physics it checks out.

    Likewise, there's the problem that Peter repeatedly yanked people mid-fall multiple times before and after that story and all of them survived.

    Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg
    Gwen Snap Spidey 2 - ASM #232.jpg
    Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

    The first one is from the Lee-Romita era (you can see the distinct 4-Rectangle Panel that JRSr used, the second one is from ASM #232 by Stern/JRJR, and the third is from the Michelinie era, ASM#362, by Bagley). The latter one has Peter using his webs to save a baby...and I should think that if a tiny child's soft neck survived that, then Gwen's neck couldn't have snapped just because Peter used his webs. There's actually more. You have an instance of this in BACK IN BLACK but there's a limit of 3 images per upload.
    If a person is thrown off a great height by a maniac, and someone else tries and fails to save her, the maniac is still responsible for the death, morally and legally.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #8
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    Under Good Samaritan law in New York (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), Spider-man would be legally free of the death of Gwen Stacy due to the attempt at saving her life. Sure she still died, but Spider-man was acting in good faith that he could save her.

    Norman legally would still count for the kill given he is the one who initiated the situation with the intent to do harm.

    Spider-man would face other charges but murder of Gwen Stacy is not one of them.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Even if the sudden stop of the fall broke Gwen's neck, I think Spider-Man is more accountable of the death of Captain Stacy, since his gizmo made Octopus lose control over his mechanical arms, than Gwen's. The death of Gwen Stacy is only in the Green Goblin's hands
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  10. #10
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    A good example is probably Gwen being dead BEFORE she was caught by the web. That made no sense to me. Why would Goblin kill her before? The whole point would be to take her out in front of Spider-Man, right? So why would he kill her before? Oh, I know: it's to absolve Peter of the accidental murder of his girlfriend. That story is compelling and created a lot of guilt for Peter. Without that element, it becomes just another "villain kills my loved one" story, you know?

    (On a side note, a lot of flashbacks to that moment have her being alive and awake before she was knocked off the bridge.)
    Which story suggested that Norman killed Gwen before he dropped her?

    The main question is whether it was the shock of the fall that killed her, or whether Peter snapped her neck by catching her with his webbing.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #11
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    Other comics and adaptations have Peter saving people by launching a web line to snag them in free fall. The Fox Kids animated series has him doing this at least three times, one of those instances being Norman Osborn ironically enough.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Other comics and adaptations have Peter saving people by launching a web line to snag them in free fall. The Fox Kids animated series has him doing this at least three times, one of those instances being Norman Osborn ironically enough.
    It could've been a freak accident, something that wouldn't happen most of the time.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If a person is thrown off a great height by a maniac, and someone else tries and fails to save her, the maniac is still responsible for the death, morally and legally.
    Someone needs to inform Mark Waid about this. Because his "history" blames Peter and not Goblin.

    Gwen Snap Spidey 5 - Waid Rodriquez Revisionism.jpg

    And for that matter Donny Cates.
    https://twitter.com/Doncates/status/609912491712212992

    To me the Gwen snap thing is just a half-assed idea and concept Conway threw in to be a troll and outright counters the rest of the story he wrote. And again it's been inconsistently applied by other writers/artists before and after. If a web-line can catch a falling baby safely, then it could have saved Gwen without snapping her neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Spider-man would face other charges but murder of Gwen Stacy is not one of them.
    Spider-Man's main crime is "Failure to report a crime". By refusing to turn Green Goblin in at the end of ASM#40 and letting an unstable psychopath with a history of criminal and murderous behavior lapse into civilian life he is guilty of criminal negligence and he put a time bomb in the lives of his family and friends. It's especially unforgivable given that Norman did have a major relapse during the Drug Trilogy. If there had been no prior instance and Norman was mellow until then, it would be negligent but at least defensible. But after the drug trilogy...there was no excuse. Peter knew the Goblin wasn't entirely dormant, he knew that if Norman snapped, he could start bombing and going crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I think Spider-Man is more accountable of the death of Captain Stacy, since his gizmo made Octopus lose control over his mechanical arms, than Gwen's.
    That's collateral damage and again Doctor Octopus was a terrorist (who in the issue leading to that hijacked a diplomat's plane and held it hostage, which is what terrorists did in the 70s) and attacking and rampaging across the city. So even there Doctor Octopus is to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Other comics and adaptations have Peter saving people by launching a web line to snag them in free fall.
    The funny thing is...there's this trope where anytime it's a girl, or prominent female love-interest who falls from a height, the way Spider-Man goes to save them is different, specifically in a "this is how Gwen would have lived" kind of way. Take Raimi's Spider-Man 1, where Peter dives after MJ, somehow his descent speed is greater than hers (which okay superpowers) grabs her and then swings and grabs the cable car. In Mark Millar's MK;Spider-Man, Peter sends multiple weblines to grab MJ at different parts of her body so that the neck doesn't snap...

    But then, in Back in Black, Peter does this as an "intimidation tactic". He intimidates a guy who he wants for information by throwing him off a building and then snapping him mid-fall...

    Gwen Snap Spidey 4 - ASM Back in Black 2.jpg

    Which means that Spider-Man was sure he would survive that...so that means that Gwen really did die from "the shock of the fall" as far as actual story surface level goes.

  14. #14
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Even if the sudden stop of the fall broke Gwen's neck, I think Spider-Man is more accountable of the death of Captain Stacy, since his gizmo made Octopus lose control over his mechanical arms, than Gwen's. The death of Gwen Stacy is only in the Green Goblin's hands
    My thoughts exactly.

    If Norman hadn't thrown Gwen off the bridge she would not have died. Spider-Man tried his best to prevent a tragedy but failed. It is no different than an EMT trying to save a badly injured person at the scene of an accident with limited resources, limited options and limited information about the patient (any preexisting conditions which might hamper treatment, for example). If Spider-Man did not intervene she would have died anyway. There is only one person morally and legally responsible for Gwen's death Green Goblin.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It could've been a freak accident, something that wouldn't happen most of the time.
    Pretty convenient freak accident.

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