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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    How so?

    The one time it happens is when Marvel wanted to kill off a character they were bored with.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCampy89 View Post
    * Heck, even the name of the bridge was wrong.
    The dialogue says George Washington Bridge, Kane however based it on the Brooklyn Bridge. Later writers make it the Queensborough Bridge. But the GW Bridge makes sense geography-wise...it's north of the city really uptown, which makes Peter's desperation to swing all the way from midtown to there more palpable. Whereas it's not as much if he had to swing to Queensborough or Brooklyn.

    I don't believe that the "snap!" sound was added by mistake or as a joke or as a subconscious bullshit. It's too much of a "well thought, well put" situation to be just a coincidence or something unwanted/misunderstood.
    The fact is that the dialogue has Goblin saying the fall would have killed anyone from that height. (and it's true, bridge jumpers, who are a real thing rarely survive jumping bridges in NY). In the next issue, Peter outright calls Goblin for trying to say that he didn't kill Gwen. There's also a moment where Spider-Man's falling for a bit and he then webs to the bridge and reflects how if Gwen had super-strength she could have survived that fall.

    So the fact is the dialogue and story clearly goes with an explanation opposed to the "snap". Conway added the snap sound-effects after the artwork came which was standard procedure at the time. What that meant is that by the time Conway looked at the artwork for ASM #121, the scripts for both issues had already been written and sent to the penciller (because again monthly ongoing comic and it's been policy that no matter what, Spider-Man at least ships on time). So Conway added that "snap" effect late in the game well after he had written a story where Gwen died from a fall after Goblin rammed her off the bridge.

    I don't believe their version of the facts.
    This was Conway's doing since it's the writer's job to add in sound effects, usually done after the finished pages come and are then sent to the letterer. Conway has consistently said this numerous times over the decades. And again the actual story checks out when you see the issues ASM #121-122

    If Peter is responsible for Gwen's death then the story where Peter goes in a righteous rage against Goblin in ASM#122 simply doesn't work in any dramatic sense. Goblin claiming credit for Gwen's death also doesn't make sense since it would have been in character for Norman to taunt Peter about how he murdered Gwen and rubbed it in right then and there.

    It makes more sense with the bitter, dark and dramatic tone of the story
    Except that's not really the tone of the story.

  3. #33
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.
    This. Its right there in Conway's original story. She was dead already. People die during falls, it happens.

    Did anyone ever do an autopsy to determine cause of death?
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The one time it happens is when Marvel wanted to kill off a character they were bored with.
    Narratively convenient things occur in most comic book stories, often many times per issue.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman didn't kill her before she was thrown, he said she was dead when she started falling, with the logic that "A fall like that would kill anyone before they reached the ground", and this isn't the retcon, it's the original intent, the retcon is Peter accidentally killing her.
    The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon. It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    This. Its right there in Conway's original story. She was dead already. People die during falls, it happens.

    Did anyone ever do an autopsy to determine cause of death?
    Don't think there was ever any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon. It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.
    Yeah, the snap is in the original version, but they still have conversations happening like she died because of the fall, the snap was just conveniently used to retcon and say it wasn't the fall, it was the sudden stop.

    And yeah, logically it's the better explanation (Even then, you have to ignore other, identical situations where they followed comic book logic instead of real life logic), doesn't change the fact the original intent was something else, which was my point.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I kind of think that dialogues and plot counts for more than sound effects. Especially written in sound effects.

    To me this is analogous to Blade Runner where the screenplay, actors and everyone on set agreed that Harrison Ford was human but late in production Ridley Scott tried to add in the idea that Ford’s character is a replicant even if it went against the entire logic of the movie.

  8. #38
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    It should not matter because she should be brought back.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon.
    "The fall would have killed anyone" as Goblin said is also in the original issue. And Conway said that he added that sound effect in the final stages after submitting his scripts and not altering the existing story to fit that in.

    It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.
    In so far as Gwen's death is an example of real physics interjected into comics...the fall killing Gwen is still better in terms of subversion than the web snap.

    Likewise, Gwen was rammed off the bridge by Goblin at top speed on his glider, so it's like she got hit by a motorcycle at full speed then bumped into the air right away.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "The fall would have killed anyone" as Goblin said is also in the original issue. And Conway said that he added that sound effect in the final stages after submitting his scripts and not altering the existing story to fit that in.



    In so far as Gwen's death is an example of real physics interjected into comics...the fall killing Gwen is still better in terms of subversion than the web snap.

    Likewise, Gwen was rammed off the bridge by Goblin at top speed on his glider, so it's like she got hit by a motorcycle at full speed then bumped into the air right away.
    The sound effect remains in the original comic, and it was something Conway selected. It's not a retcon, as much as a comic book that had two explanations, one of which makes a lot more sense based on our understanding of physics and biology.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Don't think there was ever any.

    This. Even accepting the remote chance of dying from a heart attack caused by the stress of falling, Gwen should have been alive for a few minutes at least. Conway was just a victim/contributor of a pervasive myth with no basis whatsoever.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The sound effect remains in the original comic, and it was something Conway selected.
    Written-in sound effects in comics do not count for more than actual surface-level dialogue, character beats, and plot points.

    It's not a retcon, as much as a comic book that had two explanations,
    One of which directly contradicts the other, and one of which is privileged by the characters and story as the real explanation: i.e. Goblin killed Gwen when he rammed her off the bridge.

    Compare this to Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1. I don't care for that story myself and it's a good thing that it's been by-and-large quietly ignored and downplayed over the decades but Christopher Priest wrote that story and followed through there the idea of Peter accidentally killing someone.

    one of which makes a lot more sense based on our understanding of physics and biology.
    Which means zilch in terms of dramatic storytelling. The story can't treat Goblin as Gwen's murderer and killer and blame Spider-Man for Gwen's death at the same time. The story we have (ASM #121-122) clearly goes with the first choice and that's what counts.

    "Understanding of physics and biology" means nothing in superhero comics and it's always a way for a writer putting the thumbs on the scales and as such it's never going to be satisfying. Which is probably why it's done in such a half-assed way there.

    Based on such an understanding, there's no way Batman can be non-lethal for instance, all those aggressive punches and kicks, violent weapons such as batarangs and other devices he uses just would absolutely have to have killed people and caused collateral damage over the years (which is why moviemakers like Tim Burton and Zack Snyder have him openly kill people). The Punisher would absolutely have killed an innocent bystander with a stray bullet or ricochet (there's an actual mandate forbidding this in comics).

  13. #43
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    The real question is this, which would bother Peter more? I actually think he'd be more haunted by the revelation that nothing he could have done would have made a difference. If her death was his fault, then he can at least adjust his actions accordingly the next time he's in a similar situation. The one thing Peter will never accept is that there isn't a way that everyone could have been saved.

  15. #45
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    If real-life physics were true in comics, then Captain America would have been killed at least 50 times before and Giant Man would have instead been Giant Puddle of Flesh and Broken Bone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The snap is in the original issue, so it's not really a retcon. It's also a better explanation than a healthy young adult dying of shock.
    On top of the bridge pylon she was also clearly either dead or unconscious in the original story. Goblin's glider hit could have killed her, the fall could have or the snap. The only injury we are sure she sustained is the snap, though, as its the only one spelled out clearly.

    Just a muddled sequence of events. Which is part of its brilliance, I think. In real time, for an incident like that, things would be very muddled and happen too quickly to track well.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 10-29-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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