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  1. #241
    Amazing Member Crabble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Look guys, my problem is taking the focus of from "action" and on to something else. I have no problem with superman having other elements. All action heroes do.
    For the people, that are saying. Rebirth superman isn't for me. That is furthest from the truth. But, the honest truth. I enjoyed rebirth because of jon, not clark. Jon got key action moments in rebirth. For clark threats were minimal. An action hero is someone has fights with and gets over great obstacles, has training/learns new skills to battle foes, grows personally and powerwise. All these things happened. There is an action hero in rebirth. But, clark was not him. The focus was not on Superman the action hero. It was jon kent the action hero.
    How does that help clark kent superman? The perception will be clark is just for drama stuff. When that ain't true
    And bendis stories are more superman focused. It is nothing like rebirth
    Didn't know you felt that way. I'm sorry for assuming otherwise.

  2. #242
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    No ones saying to exclude action. But these shows all incorporate action along with the drama. Have you seen Black Lightning? There’s plenty of action in that. Superman, particularly live action Superman, has always had romantic elements involved. Even the the Golden Age stuff had Clark and Superman romancing Lois. Why is that lazy, safe, or uninspiring. If anything the safest laziest route would be a CGI fest action movie.
    Action doesn't always equate cgifest. Cgi can just be used to enhance things. Besides, superman doesn't need that much cgi. They just need exaggerate his speed. The problem with superman fights and powers is that its not well choreographed. For instance, look at the modern day superman flight ability and how its used. Its uninspiring. Compare that to the way spidey moves or heck! the way goldenage guy or allmight moved in both fliescher cartoons or in comics. It was more like gliding. Clark would do awesome **** like summersaults and arieal manneurs like dives. Action is about choreographed movies. This is'nt a real world fight were effectiveness is more important. Superman needs to look good in fights. One pose for flight is plain to look at.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-30-2019 at 02:42 PM.

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I guess I would disagree that Superman doesn't need much CGI. If you don't do CGI, you need really efficient practical, which doesn't come for cheap (time or money) so sometimes it's easier just to get some VFX artists to do it.

    I think in the age of $200 million superhero movies, it's more important now than ever to get your live-action superhero stuff to look good, in which case I'd rather just watch classic (not CGI) animation. Low-budget Superman live-action just doesn't appeal to me unless you do a very low key Superman.

  4. #244
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I guess I would disagree that Superman doesn't need much CGI. If you don't do CGI, you need really efficient practical, which doesn't come for cheap (time or money) so sometimes it's easier just to get some VFX artists to do it.

    I think in the age of $200 million superhero movies, it's more important now than ever to get your live-action superhero stuff to look good, in which case I'd rather just watch classic (not CGI) animation. Low-budget Superman live-action just doesn't appeal to me unless you do a very low key Superman.
    Yeah! I am speaking comparatively. But, at the end of the day i would kill for an action animated series in the vain of samurai jack.Superman can be an awesome action hero. They would have to work on style. At the end of the day the only people i have seen do justice to superman's since the golden age are anime guys. Just look at the way allmight movies.



    This is non official. As in made by fans. If fans can do this. Then guys with actual budget can make something good with superman type abilities.

  5. #245
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yep that’s live action and Supes was one of the heroes on the promo image with a kid wearing an S-shield shirt (not Jon or Kon just a regular civilian).
    Yeah I think I saw it, but that is not confirmation that we will see Superman in that show, though.

  6. #246
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Yeah I think I saw it, but that is not confirmation that we will see Superman in that show, though.
    I don’t think they would put him in the promo image and then not use him but fair enough.

  7. #247
    Incredible Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Watch this and tell me there's any hope that a Superman show on the CW won't be a trainwreck.


  8. #248
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    Watch this and tell me there's any hope that a Superman show on the CW won't be a trainwreck.

    Hope is dead. That was bad. That was supposed to be a fight?

  9. #249
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    It’s not just a matter of CG.

    Movies are run by directors, editors, cinematographers.

    TV is generally run from the writers’ room.

    You might get lucky and get Justin Lin to direct an episode but stuff like fight choreography is not going to take priority in a medium run by writers, with directors as hired hands who have 5 days to shoot an episode.

  10. #250
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    It’s not just a matter of CG.

    Movies are run by directors, editors, cinematographers.

    TV is generally run from the writers’ room.

    You might get lucky and get Justin Lin to direct an episode but stuff like fight choreography is not going to take priority in a medium run by writers, with directors as hired hands who have 5 days to shoot an episode.
    That's precisely the point. Fight Choreography is very important.otherwise saying fights will be good is meaningless. It won't help the bad perception of the ip as an action brand and hurt the tension from 'world saving side' side. Superman ip is at the end of the day action oriented at its core. Divorcing that from the character is betraying the character. That is exactly why jerry siegel hated superman being married in continuity. The mundane drama taking over will shift the character and take the character somewhere it shouldn't go and can't go.superman can't fill the role of serious drama and love story like those specifically designed for those does or could.that is'nt the market for superman. Because he will never be able to compete . He is at the end of the day superhero who fights bad guys. Taking focus away from that is bad.
    Atleast in rebirth fighting badguys was the focus. Clark wasn't dealing with mundane aside from few heartwarming moments. Which are fine. Siegel and shuster themselves did those like baby scene i posted.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-31-2019 at 03:40 AM.

  11. #251
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with you both on this. You can certainly have excellently choreographed action scenes within the CW style dramas. And this idea that Superman needs to be regulated to a "action" show is also completely unfounded because even "action" movies are predominately not fight scenes, etc. Unless you're just arguing against a Superman tv show completely, regardless of the network, they are never going to put out a show that focuses strictly on "action" or just feat after feat or fight after fight. That simply doesn't hold general audiences.

    And again, CW cranks out scenes like this for a lot of its shows. Arrow has had some excellent fight choreography. Flash had a amazing one, and while I don't agree it's better than Daredevil's hallway fight, it's pretty awesome display of what they can do.



    This show isn't going to be family drama alone. It's going to fit the CW formula which is very well established at this point. There are plenty of action scenes in each episode. Shows like Black Lightning handle the balance between the family drama and action well. It's part of the appeal to get into and know the characters lives. But even then being on the CW doesn't mean you're not going to get well choreographed action scenes. There are plenty of directors that handle action exceptionally well at this level.

    None of these characters or shows are "an action brand." Comics have been soap operas for decades and decades. Marvel took prominence from DC specifically by shifting into a continuity heavy slice of life elements. Spider-Man didn't become so popular because he does cool flips, it's Peter Parker that made him a classic character.
    Last edited by Yoda; 10-31-2019 at 04:54 AM.

  12. #252
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I have to disagree with you both on this. You can certainly have excellently choreographed action scenes within the CW style dramas. And this idea that Superman needs to be regulated to a "action" show is also completely unfounded because even "action" movies are predominately not fight scenes, etc. Unless you're just arguing against a Superman tv show completely, regardless of the network, they are never going to put out a show that focuses strictly on "action" or just feat after feat or fight after fight. That simply doesn't hold general audiences.

    And again, CW cranks out scenes like this for a lot of its shows. Arrow has had some excellent fight choreography. Flash had a amazing one, and while I don't agree it's better than Daredevil's hallway fight, it's pretty awesome display of what they can do.

    This show isn't going to be family drama alone. It's going to fit the CW formula which is very well established at this point. There are plenty of action scenes in each episode. Shows like Black Lightning handle the balance between the family drama and action well. It's part of the appeal to get into and know the characters lives. But even then being on the CW doesn't mean you're not going to get well choreographed action scenes. There are plenty of directors that handle action exceptionally well at this level.

    None of these characters or shows are "an action brand." Comics have been soap operas for decades and decades. Marvel took prominence from DC specifically by shifting into a continuity heavy slice of life elements. Spider-Man didn't become so popular because he does cool flips, it's Peter Parker that made him a classic character.
    that isn't a fight scene. But, a decent showing of cgi powers and some wireworks. I would grant that those extras mind controlled going for free for all is very decent. looked well managed.neither was the one above posted. Fight is essentially a dance with two or more people. Everything adds to this dance like emotions, camera work, ambience, blood.. Etc.

    All i am saying is that cw formula ain't gonna help supes at this point of time. Daredevil was very much action combined with courtroom drama. Arrow was said to have decent fight scenes. but i haven't seen anyone rave about it, like i have for daredevil. From what i have seen of black lightning. it looks passable.but, nothing spectacular. All i want is, superman to have something spectacular. so that casual and generals can get the idea that superman is special in every way. including the things he was made for-action, scifi and fantasy(dash! Of subject of social relevance and morality) . I hope action and choreography are stylised and great to look at. The vfx looks decent enough.

    Who said superman needed to be relegated to action?(it wouldn't be much of a relegation. Since that's his base.he debuted in action comics. Not romance comics) . But, that should be the focus along with saving the world. A singer should be about singing. Actor is about acting. Actor might be able to sing. But, it won't be his/her speciality and Vice versa. Superman is an action hero. He will always be that at the core. A superman who sucks at that will lead to bad perception and reception about the character long term.think about it death of superman had great action accentuated by emotions(one of the components of good fight. When naruto and sasuke fight.it is the emotions that work because its essentially brother vs brother) . It also helped the brand atleast in regards to animated division. Both it and reigns did well enough. Now they are making more superman movies.

    Especially, now when superhero icons aren't restricted to batman, superman, spiderman and wonderwoman. This is'nt the 90`s where quality superheroes shows and media adaptations are largely small to nonexistent. So much so that romcoms like lois and clark will help the superman ip. Since, getting media adaptation itself is big deal back then.plus, superman didn't have much competition as culture figure superhero aside from the 4 during back then so romcom with clois wouldn't create perceptions that is bad for the character. Like for instance, superman sucks at action. I mean, people already think superman can't fight. Imagine that, people thinking that an action hero doesn't know how to fight(i am not talking about the out of character martial arts they tried to fit in. Clark should be good at his strengths boxing, wrestling and lifting) . Out of the 4 i mentioned all 3 of them have secured portrayal in modern era. Superman doesn't. We live in a world now where antman is getting a movie and had a sequel. Superman didn't. That is scary. That means WB has no idea what to do with the ip.

    True, peter as a character is compelling and complex on his own. But, you are being incredibly naive if you think spiderman's agility and his costume wasn't also reason. If it didn't spiderman wouldn't be doing the summersaults and flips. They are big part of the reason. The amazing spiderman was and is fun to look at. Plus he embraces the vigilante aspect. So does batman. Wonder woman is a warrior from reclusive Island . They aren't perceived to be jesus, gandhi or something ridiculous like that.clark kent is. They are seen as flawed individuals who make mistakes .peter's mask itself tells a story. Spidey wouldn't be amazing, if he didn't do blackflips. He would be another person living nextdoor. He is amazing because he does backflips and is the guy next door. Also,samraimi spiderman was hell of action movie. Fight scenes were fantastic. It only propelled spiderman further.
    by steve ditko who loves to draw hands.

    Comics haven't been just soap operas. If they were there wouldn't be people talking who can kick who's ass. What feats are awesome. What action sequences were cool. Powerlevel talks. So on and so forth.

    You can still make wacky adam west batman today. Because it wouldn't do anything to how the icon is perceived. It would not detract to brand value.infact it might add it. Cause it will show how versatile he is. Superman at this point doesn't need to show how versatile he is. but, how good he is in his speciality. That is inspiring superheroics and eye catching action.

    This is the kind of shift jerry siegel talked about. Superman is not meant to be shown as just a guy who changes diapers of a baby. He should be guy handling a wierd baby that crushes coal to diamonds and creates a chocolate house. Now that would be within the realm of acceptability. Since, fantasy would be the focus not the mundane.

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    You’re arguing a strawman. No one is saying the show should just be all drama all the time. It’s superhero drama. A mix and balance. Like every single successful adaptation of every single superhero property ever. Daredevil has one fight scene people talk about. Spider-Man is popular because they mix the drama with the superhero stuff. His biggest most iconic scenes are him lifting heavy stuff thinking about his elderly aunt.

    Again, you’re arguing against something that doesn’t and won’t exist. They won’t make a show that’s Clark changing diapers. And not being Superman. It’s not a workroom or family drama. It’s a superhero drama. The heroics will be there. I don’t really understand your point. Feats and fights are comic message board arguments. General audiences don’t care about that. Game of Thrones had amazing battles. Once a season. The rest were drama and intrigue and character work. We’re talking general audience appeal, not niche message board appeal or anime fans.

    And they literally just had three Superman centric movies where he fights a ton. The entire back third of Man of Steel and BvS are giant superhero battles. Ant man was a superhero heist movie. With a focus on family and friendship. You can do a superhero rom com with Lois and Clark with as much action as Antman or any marvel movie.

  14. #254
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Why can't superman be an actual action hero anymore? I hate the notion that superman needs a romcom or family drama something like that to be be successful. It's lazy, safe and uninspiring because that's what Superman has turned into and is currently now. He is no longer an action hero.
    No one wants to watch a video game for a whole hour. Plus they don't have the budget for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    Watch this and tell me there's any hope that a Superman show on the CW won't be a trainwreck.

    Looks good to me. What's the problem?

  15. #255
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    You’re arguing a strawman. No one is saying the show should just be all drama all the time. It’s superhero drama. A mix and balance. Like every single successful adaptation of every single superhero property ever. Daredevil has one fight scene people talk about. Spider-Man is popular because they mix the drama with the superhero stuff. His biggest most iconic scenes are him lifting heavy stuff thinking about his elderly aunt.

    Again, you’re arguing against something that doesn’t and won’t exist. They won’t make a show that’s Clark changing diapers. And not being Superman. It’s not a workroom or family drama. It’s a superhero drama. The heroics will be there. I don’t really understand your point. Feats and fights are comic message board arguments. General audiences don’t care about that. Game of Thrones had amazing battles. Once a season. The rest were drama and intrigue and character work. We’re talking general audience appeal, not niche message board appeal or anime fans.

    And they literally just had three Superman centric movies where he fights a ton. The entire back third of Man of Steel and BvS are giant superhero battles. Ant man was a superhero heist movie. With a focus on family and friendship. You can do a superhero rom com with Lois and Clark with as much action as Antman or any marvel movie.
    No, All i am saying is that fight scenes have to look good. It should be a if not the priority. That was always my point. Anything that isn't will be bad for me. As for daredevil, hallway fight is the most talked about because its excellent . But, i don't think it is the only good fight. For instance, fights with punisher, nobu.. Etc were also good. Well, yeah! Spidey does that.Superman should too. He should lift trees to entertain a baby and do summersaults .like a monkey.

    You said comics are just soap opera's. They aren't. They never have been just that. If it was things like "strongest one there is" and "fastest man alive" wouldn't exist.general audiences would care character doesn't have an impressive showing for instance hulk in avengers infinity war and endgame peoples unanimously declared hulk was bad in those movies. Stylised fighting isn't just fisty cuffs. It is by definition extention of drama and tension. People very much care about that in action genre.

    Antman isn't heist movie. It has heist elements (handled badly in my opinion). Snyder movies had action set pieces. It just wasn't spread out nor was it that great. It was just unrelenting cgi fest and building's collapsing and very tiring. It also lacked finese and every fighter was basically a brawler. It feels like snyder puts in these set pieces just for the sake of it. Not as an extension of the drama. But, he still does do a decent ties when fight begin. Like zod's motive, clark stopping fist of abomination from hitting luthor. I would argue that shazam/superman animated movie had better choreography and pacing. It had moments of breather and tension. I have never said you can't do a romcom as some additional flavour. All i am saying, action should never be an after thought.it should be front and centre. Not romcom or whatever.
    Jon seems to be the only thing benefitting from this. Clark kent character should too as well. I hate that clark is being treated as lameass guy who just does drama and romance . when he can do a finger stand, lol!
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-31-2019 at 08:21 AM.

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