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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Given how often Raven's narrative ends up being swallowed up by her father, that's exactly why I wouldn't want something like this for Diana.
    Poor Raven. "A plot that comes up regularly" - just the same story (her father) over and over and over again and she never gets to move on or progress. It was a good first story, IMO. And since he was only trapped the first time, his reappearance made sense. But it should have been done after he was killed and we never should have had him or demonic influence over Raven ever again. Cyborg is similarly trapped in an "man or machine" storyline, though at least it isn't all about another person. The same could maybe be said for Kory and terrible things happening to Tamaran, but I don't follow that closely enough to be sure. Raven, like Gar, is also stuck in age, and more than one de-aged, and I wonder if her "big story" being about her father contributes to keeping the youth - not sure on that, though. It irritates me that they aren't allowed to grow up.

    And Raven is sort of defined by her dad as AgentZ said. What great (or even memorable) storylines does she have that aren't about her dad/demonic heritage? What are some defining characteristics she has? In the early days, I could give some characteristics that weren't even connected to Trigon, at least. But ultimately, as time wore on, she ended up dominated by that relationship. There are so many other things that could be done with her, but everyone sticks to that one. I think Wolfman is largely responsible. Firstly because the first story was good and part a great-selling comic. So, remembered and repeated when trying to repeat success. Secondly, because he ran out steam (or into writer's block) and repeated stories starting around the time of COIE, so basically the newbies only have their first arcs to work with in other media. Then it's a self-feeding cycle that it's difficult to break free of.

    Anyway, even if it was a good story/origin for one character, that still doesn't make it a good idea to copy it for another character. It's derivative and unoriginal. Not so much so as Proxy as an Oracle clone (or Jason Todd's original origin), but still possibly frustratingly so.

    Now, I like original Raven (1980-1984ish) a lot. But I don't want Diana to be like her. The burden, the self-doubt, the father always trying to claim her. Raven breaking free of that - forever - was a storyline I wanted to see. Keeping it present is just boring to me. But even the breaking free part isn't a story I'd want for Diana. She's just a fundamentally different character/achetype that should want and stand for and mean different things than Raven to me. More self-assurance, well-raised (Raven was not), and very much one of her people in contrast to Raven, who was something of an outcast.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-04-2019 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Given how often Raven's narrative ends up being swallowed up by her father, that's exactly why I wouldn't want something like this for Diana.
    That's mainly a thing that happens when the story is focused on Raven. When she's written as part of the team that gets shoved to the back and you just see Raven doing stuff.

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