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Thread: World War X

  1. #151
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Do you think Reed Richards will be important as an anti-Krakoa character? It’s established that he’s very much against giving scumbag criminals like Sabretooth amnesty *just* for being mutants, and it’s clear he doesn’t like the situation in general. Of course, there’s the upcoming X-Men/Fantastic Four mini building off of this and showing Reed’s conflict over the mutants due to his son.
    I definately think the notion of mutant villains gaining amnesty will rub some heroes (and governments) the wrong way. But not necessarily to the point where it would result in flat out conflict.

    But when other heroes find out about the mutant council being made up of villains, that'll definately raise tensions. I'm sure at that most most heroes (not unlike most readers) will basically be waiting for this to blow up in the X-Mens face.

  2. #152
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    In fairness; virtually no non-mutant hero is really in a position to start complaining about the composition of the notionally provisional Quiet Council, considering they’ve all willingly buddied up to people as awful as Sinister, Shaw and Emma in the past.

    And that’s not even counting those who willing collaborated with certain facist Regimes (glares at Thor, Frank and Wade)
    Last edited by king of hybrids; 11-16-2019 at 04:17 AM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    In fairness; virtually no non-mutant hero is really in a position to start complaining about the composition of the notionally provisional Quiet Council, considering they’ve all willingly buddied up to people as awful as Sinister, Shaw and Emma in the past.

    And that’s not even counting those who willing collaborated with certain facist Regimes (glares at Thor, Frank and Wade)
    If people aren't automatically willing to give people like Sinisher, Shaw and even Emma the benefit of the doubt, that's on them though. That's something earned. Even Emma sort of flips flops on that one.

    That said, this is an opportunity for them to prove the doubters wrong. We'll see how this turns out. Again, I think this is a situation where we're just waiting for things to blow up in the X-Men faces... but maybe Hickman will surprise us. Maybe.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    In fairness; virtually no non-mutant hero is really in a position to start complaining about the composition of the notionally provisional Quiet Council, considering they’ve all willingly buddied up to people as awful as Sinister, Shaw and Emma in the past.

    And that’s not even counting those who willing collaborated with certain facist Regimes (glares at Thor, Frank and Wade)
    Yeah, that's a very good point, too. Almost every superhero in the Marvel Universe outside the X-Men has been willing to collaborate or collude with people of extremely dubious character, to put it somewhat euphemistically. And yes, it is a shame that except for what's happening with Steve Rogers in Ta-Nehisi Coates' Captain America series, Marvel has been content to let the events of Secret Empire go almost completely unaddressed.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #155
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    At a wager it’s the fact that, setting aside the issue that Secret Empire was... less good than the build up, events like it tend to be too ambitious for the illusion of change that Marvel operates under.

    If status quo wasn’t a thing, Secret Empire should have heralded the death of the 616 US, the Captain America legacy and superhuman of any description having even a notion of free will.

    For somewhat obvious reasons, that ain’t happening.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    At a wager it’s the fact that, setting aside the issue that Secret Empire was... less good than the build up, events like it tend to be too ambitious for the illusion of change that Marvel operates under.

    If status quo wasn’t a thing, Secret Empire should have heralded the death of the 616 US, the Captain America legacy and superhuman of any description having even a notion of free will.

    For somewhat obvious reasons, that ain’t happening.
    Arguably, the same thing could be said of the original Civil War, especially after its status quo concluded in Norman Osborn's Dark Reign. That should have forced some serious, if not even permanent, rethinking of everything in the Marvel Universe up to that point, given what happened. Maybe the superheroes couldn't be trusted like they were before, but any government that would willingly put Norman Osborn in charge of things after all the murderous crap he got up to might not be a government worth letting stand, either.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #157
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    SHIELD didn't die for this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Banner
    I like Charles Xavier, nice guy. But we are in a moment where billionaires control not only our economy but our political life. #Professor$

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    SHIELD didn't die for this.
    SHIELD died because their TV show did a better ‘Hydra takes over the world’ plot than Secret Empire did.

    Which brings us to the real fear behind this thread: that now that Marvel and X-Men are reconciled thanks to the buy out, every Other franchise that doesn’t have a Spider is liable to be thrown under the bus as the proverbial fattened calf

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    SHIELD died because their TV show did a better ‘Hydra takes over the world’ plot than Secret Empire did.

    Which brings us to the real fear behind this thread: that now that Marvel and X-Men are reconciled thanks to the buy out, every Other franchise that doesn’t have a Spider is liable to be thrown under the bus as the proverbial fattened calf
    Hopefully Cebulski is smarter than that, i.e. throwing ANY franchise under the bus, because as things stand right now, comics as a whole cannot afford to lose ANY heavy hitter (i.e. anyone who makes over 20k in sales a month), I don't care how good the X-Men are currently doing, what they are selling now is NOTHING compared to what they used to bring in during their heyday and the X-Men, alone, cannot carry superhero comics when superhero comics, as a whole, make up only 10% of comic/graphic novel sales these days...



    It would be the height of stupidity to throw ANY franchise that sells over 20k a month under the bus. Marvel can simply no longer afford to do that. Especially considering that even titles with popular characters (and who have an MCU presence) are suffering, like Loki and Black Panther (who's movie had the highest grossing box office for a single character outing and yet his comic only sold 15,260 issues last month) as an example. Look at Strikeforce! That team is amazing and probably would have sold better even a decade ago but it's only had two issues released and it, too, is suffering. The way current sales are going if you're name isn't Avengers, Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Ghost Rider, Dr. Doom or Daredevil, you're struggling to even make that 20k, or even be listed in the top 100, which used to be the cancellation threshold, i.e. anything that sold under 20k was up for cancellation. I think they've since lowered their expectations because of how sales have struggled. But I did the math once, pricing how much just paying a lower-tier writer, penciler, inker, colorist, letterer and editor would cost to produce a comic, and just those pieces came out to roughly 6-7k for a 21 page comic, and the creative aspect only makes up 11% of the overall cost of producing a comic...



    So 11% of a $3.99 comic is roughly $0.43. Which means a comic has to sell at least 13,953 issues to break even. And again, that 6-7k figure came from the lowest pay-scale per page, i.e. for new, up-and-coming creators, I'm guessing Hickman, Ewing, Aaron, Cates, Waid, etc. probably cost double. And they've earned that right, frankly.

    Hopefully Marvel has learned greatly from their recent slew of mistakes and they know better than to sacrifice any of their top 100s. And if they haven't, we will ALL suffer for it, X-Men AND Avengers fans, alike. Because, like I said, the X-Men, by themselves, cannot carry the superhero genre. As good as their sales have been, it's not enough. And Hickman is not going to stick around forever, so the X-Men's current standing is far from being 100% sustainable.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 11-19-2019 at 12:29 PM.

  10. #160
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Bringing this back up again because of stuff that's happened since. I've seen an idea in the X-books board, that a new Illuminati forms to look after humanity's best interests, perhaps leading up to this possible event. I can see how it works and thought more of it myself, as it seems like an easy way to go forward.

    Say that the new title spins out of the X-Men/Fantastic Four mini, where Reed learns more of Krakoa from his visit, and figures out that they're resurrecting people in preparation for mutants to become the majority and withholding it from everyone else, while building off of his distaste for giving all mutant criminals no matter how evil amnesty. He forms a new Illuminati in response. It consists of people representing brilliant minds, unique skillsets, and different positions in the world, who stand to lose in the event of a mutant takeover, so their goal is to make sure this doesn't happen. Many may not get along under normal circumstances, but they're working together with teeth-clenched teamwork to ensure Krakoa doesn't win. It could even have 12 members, mirroring the Quiet Council.

    My ideal roster would consist of:
    1. Reed Richards
    2. Doctor Doom
    3. Black Panther
    4. Iron Man
    5. Brian Braddock
    6. Amadeus Cho
    7. Namor
    8. Doctor Strange
    9. Omega Sentinel
    10. Doctor Alia Gregor (ORCHIS scientist)
    11. Doctor Devo (ORCHIS director)
    12. A Krakoan double agent (perhaps Mr. Sinister?)

    Then the Illuminati and Krakoa begin to wage a secret, clandestine war against each other involving information warfare, subterfuge, manipulation, and crippling resources, that escalates into not so secret all-out war leading to the big World War X event.

    It's an idea that's been suggested, but I can easily see it happening as a means to getting to the big event Hickman is leading up to, and it feels like the natural way to do it. What do you think?

  11. #161
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    I don’t see why an anti-Krakoa Illuminati would have to resort to dealing with organizations that experiment on and presumably have killed mutant children. There’s being a hardass like Namor or being a soft dictator like Doom but then there’s working with an ostensibly racist cabal seemingly dedicated to the death of an entire subspecies. A subspecies that characters like Reed, T’Challa, Brian, and most everyone on 1-7 have strong connections to as children, lovers, siblings, and friends.

    If Marvel wants a nuanced, relatively uncontrived World War X, having one faction work with a group dedicated to the eradication of the opposing side’s entire race really makes them look bad and difficult to sympathize with. The idea of a shadow war of sorts between the leaders of humanity and Krakoa is a solid (and likely) direction, but I don’t think it’s necessary from a narrative standpoint to include ORCHIS or other genocidal groups. Between Wakanda, Atlantis, and Latveria alone the Illuminati would have more than enough resources to engage with Krakoa without incorporating unsavory figures that frankly would suck the nuance out of a potential conflict.

  12. #162
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    How can the current direction wind up any other way. The mutants are taking a hard line approach. Marvel us not going to let Krakoa become the ruling power of Earth because it would make the Marvel U too unpalatable. No major event that alters the universe to such a degree ever sticks because the Marvel U is supposed to be "the world outside your window", and a world ruled by mutants is just not that world.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Bringing this back up again because of stuff that's happened since. I've seen an idea in the X-books board, that a new Illuminati forms to look after humanity's best interests, perhaps leading up to this possible event.

    Say that the new title spins out of the X-Men/Fantastic Four mini, where Reed learns more of Krakoa from his visit, and figures out that they're resurrecting people in preparation for mutants to become the majority and withholding it from everyone else, while building off of his distaste for giving all mutant criminals no matter how evil amnesty.
    lol KraKoa is doing just that but for mutants...without the shade.
    You Dudes know this isn't really an upcoming event right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    My ideal roster would consist of:
    1. Reed Richards
    2. Doctor Doom
    3. Black Panther
    4. Iron Man
    5. Brian Braddock
    6. Amadeus Cho
    7. Namor
    8. Doctor Strange
    9. Omega Sentinel
    10. Doctor Alia Gregor (ORCHIS scientist)
    11. Doctor Devo (ORCHIS director)
    12. A Krakoan double agent (perhaps Mr. Sinister?)
    I dont think it make much sense for Reed to be soooo morally against mutants giving amnesty to criminals then work with the the likes of Doctor Doom, the ORCHIS people, Namor AND Mr. Sinister. It gives off the impression that it's not their criminality that bothers him merely the fact that they are mutants.
    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I donít see why an anti-Krakoa Illuminati would have to resort to dealing with organizations that experiment on and presumably have killed mutant children. Thereís being a hardass like Namor or being a soft dictator like Doom but then thereís working with an ostensibly racist cabal seemingly dedicated to the death of an entire subspecies. A subspecies that characters like Reed, TíChalla, Brian, and most everyone on 1-7 have strong connections to as children, lovers, siblings, and friends.
    lol right?
    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    If Marvel wants a nuanced, relatively uncontrived World War X, having one faction work with a group dedicated to the eradication of the opposing sideís entire race really makes them look bad and difficult to sympathize with. The idea of a shadow war of sorts between the leaders of humanity and Krakoa is a solid (and likely) direction, but I donít think itís necessary from a narrative standpoint to include ORCHIS or other genocidal groups. Between Wakanda, Atlantis, and Latveria alone the Illuminati would have more than enough resources to engage with Krakoa without incorporating unsavory figures that frankly would suck the nuance out of a potential conflict.
    If this were an upcoming event I'd HIGHly doubt Marvel would go forward with an idea like the Flatscan Cabal, but Hybrid might be 100% correct, remember AvX and IvX...
    Dark Days indeed for XFans
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    How can the current direction wind up any other way. The mutants are taking a hard line approach. Marvel us not going to let Krakoa become the ruling power of Earth because it would make the Marvel U too unpalatable. No major event that alters the universe to such a degree ever sticks because the Marvel U is supposed to be "the world outside your window", and a world ruled by mutants is just not that world.
    Errr what hardline approach? "The world outside your window" + SuperHeroes. Mutants doesn't seem that far of a stretch
    GrindrStone(D)

  14. #164
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Bringing this back up again because of stuff that's happened since. I've seen an idea in the X-books board, that a new Illuminati forms to look after humanity's best interests, perhaps leading up to this possible event. I can see how it works and thought more of it myself, as it seems like an easy way to go forward.

    Say that the new title spins out of the X-Men/Fantastic Four mini, where Reed learns more of Krakoa from his visit, and figures out that they're resurrecting people in preparation for mutants to become the majority and withholding it from everyone else, while building off of his distaste for giving all mutant criminals no matter how evil amnesty. He forms a new Illuminati in response. It consists of people representing brilliant minds, unique skillsets, and different positions in the world, who stand to lose in the event of a mutant takeover, so their goal is to make sure this doesn't happen. Many may not get along under normal circumstances, but they're working together with teeth-clenched teamwork to ensure Krakoa doesn't win. It could even have 12 members, mirroring the Quiet Council.

    My ideal roster would consist of:
    1. Reed Richards
    2. Doctor Doom
    3. Black Panther
    4. Iron Man
    5. Brian Braddock
    6. Amadeus Cho
    7. Namor
    8. Doctor Strange
    9. Omega Sentinel
    10. Doctor Alia Gregor (ORCHIS scientist)
    11. Doctor Devo (ORCHIS director)
    12. A Krakoan double agent (perhaps Mr. Sinister?)

    Then the Illuminati and Krakoa begin to wage a secret, clandestine war against each other involving information warfare, subterfuge, manipulation, and crippling resources, that escalates into not so secret all-out war leading to the big World War X event.

    It's an idea that's been suggested, but I can easily see it happening as a means to getting to the big event Hickman is leading up to, and it feels like the natural way to do it. What do you think?
    I doubt Reed would have a problem with the resurrections or Krakoa's growing power. He's all about the future and things changing. Plus his son is a mutant, he wouldn't help create something with the sole purpose of impeding his child's future. I see the X-Men/Fantastic Four book ending more amicably between the teams.
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  15. #165
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    If Krakoa falls it must be by the mutants own hand, otherwise we could have AvsX again with the X-fans being bitter and resentful against the rest of the MU ( which they already are )

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