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Thread: World War X

  1. #181
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a good point. Bringing back the Illuminati, especially to have them set against a long-persecuted and marginalized in-universe minority group that has finally had enough of it and is collectively fighting back, would be a very bad look these days.

    Also, having the likes of Reed Richards and Iron Man hooked up with ORCHIS would just give more ammunition to some X-Fans who think the rest of the MU, even members of the superhero community, is out to undermine and destroy the X-Men/mutants. Not helping that perception is how the nonmutant heroes have been generally far too reluctant to openly or explicitly address or push back against anti-mutant bigotry and violence by the society they protect and the government(s) with which they often cooperate, so it's very easy for some people to get the impression that they don't care what happens to their erstwhile mutant allies and comrades. After all, as was said by Martin Luther King, Jr., "There comes a time, when silence . . . is betrayal," and indeed, when you remain silent in the face of injustice and oppression, you have already chosen a side, the side of the oppressor and the unjust, even if only by default.

    On that note, Xavier's speech in the last of House of X or Powers of X was indeed also an indictment of fair-weather "friends" like the Avengers and Fantastic Four, who stood by and said and did nothing as mutants were being hunted and driven to extinction again and again. For Iron Man and Reed to then cooperate or collude with the likes of ORCHIS would just be a confirmation of the X-Men's/X-Fans' darkest fears regarding everyone not a mutant. Who would seriously want that? It would be a permanent polarization of the Marvel fandom the likes of which even the Civil Wars and their aftermaths couldn't achieve, and we would all --- fans and pros alike --- be poorer for that, in my view.
    Very true. But more than their maybe actions in this scenario, just the idea of a group of very rich men (not a woman in sight), appointing themselves as liaison for their respective teams, and then making huge decisions like shooting Hulk into space, or supporting the SHRA and building a torture prison, or building bombs that destroy planets and wiping the minds of anyone who offers dissent to that rather horrifying plan, without consulting their respective teams on that matter, is hard to reconcile in and of itself, that's not even getting into potential plot scenarios like them pitting themselves against the X-Men.

    To be clear the idea of the Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Atlantis, Wakanda, and the Inhumans getting together to share information is a great idea. I'm not opposed to a set-up like the Illuminati. BUT the liaisons should be appointed and/or voted on by their respective teams and any information shared at the meetings should be reported back to the teams. There is a level of arrogance and privilege to a group of very rich men deciding they have the right to do this behind everyone's back. Considering our current political climate, a group of wealthy men running (and buying) things behind the scenes without deference to a popular vote is a little too on the nose.

    But yes, I very much agree with the last part of your post particularly. The constant pitting of characters/teams against each other has made comics fandom a battleground enough as it is, and making that divide grow instead of heal is not a wise business move considering that a) superhero comics/monthly releases are a struggling industry and b) I've personally seen a lot of people post on Twitter that they're one heated debate away from giving up on characters/books entirely because of the behavior of the fans who took 'pick a side' too far.

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    they have spoken in the past. in the 90s the avengers were againts the use of Sentinels in war zones, Sue and Reed adopted some Morlocks in their Family. Its not like the mutant oppresion is an open legal thing, until rosemberg run they didnt have direct laws against them, just shadow agencies . And the rosemberg run wasnt also bad per se if you see the context, the world suffered a 11-S like attack by the hands of a mutant and the goverment had a way to eliminate the threat without killing millions. The mutant kind digged their own grave in that sense after AvsX, after all this time preaching tolerance the moment they have the upper hand they proclame themselves supreme rulers of the world them something doesnt work.
    that happened after several attempts by humanity to murder them. there are always humans actively preparing to engage in genocide. the mutants are simply fighting fire with hot water. and it was really only Charles Xavier preaching tolerance. and he has been killed and/or imprisoned more than once. where were Chuck's illuminati buddies when he was rotting away in an operation zero tolerance cell? where were they when Genosha was flattened?
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    that happened after several attempts by humanity to murder them. there are always humans actively preparing to engage in genocide. the mutants are simply fighting fire with hot water. and it was really only Charles Xavier preaching tolerance. and he has been killed and/or imprisoned more than once. where were Chuck's illuminati buddies when he was rotting away in an operation zero tolerance cell? where were they when Genosha was flattened?
    In the same place that the X-men since none of them were present in Genosha. And if I remember correctly the avengers in that time were in the middle of an arc about the government wanting to use the government in war zones and them trying stop it.

    I hate that Genosha is always used as an example of how bad are the avengers. None of the X-men were present there either. Genosha was destroyed in a single night off panel an no one could do nothing about it.

    Where were the X-men in the last Avengers arch when celestials almost destroy the world or when Wanda destroyed the mansion.

    And I find funny that the avengers are responsible of mutant racism when many mutants doesn’t care about it. Where was Abigail Brand when during uncanny of Rosenberg ? where were Unrsa Mayor and Dark Star ? The first one who should try to help other mutants are the mutants in positions of power but most of them aren’t blamed for nothing .

    Edit h and about the genocide stuff I suppose that there aren’t mutants who attempted to comit genocide in the past like the whole Akkaba clan with their genetic bomb.
    Last edited by hulkling; 01-21-2020 at 09:53 AM.

  4. #184
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    They could at least speak out against it. Leverage their comparatively more positive reception with the public to openly challenge anti-mutant bigotry whenever and wherever possible. Of course, I blame the lack of that more on Marvel editorial basically determining, "X-Men problems must be solved by X-Men," which pretty much made something like the Avengers Unity Squad a toothless exercise.
    Comic books pretty much HAVE to work that way though. It's not like the X-Men regularly show up to help the Avengers or Fantastic Four in their books either. It happens every once in awhile when writers want to do a cross over or team up, but as a general rule of thumb the Avengers resolve problems in an Avengers book, the FF resolve problems in an FF book, and the X-Men resolve problems in an X-Men book. Despite the fact that historically all these teams operate within a couple miles of each other. When Galactus shows up, I don't hear Reed complaining: "Where the heck are the X-Men?" and he shouldn't. It's not their book.

    Obviously the X-Men writers COULD have other heroes doing more in their books if they really wanted too... but again, it's the X-mens book.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    In the same place that the X-men since none of them were present in Genosha.
    several of them were present in Genosha. several of them helped with the clean up. and they also housed them afterwards.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    Where were the X-men in the last Avengers arch when celestials almost destroy the world or when Wanda destroyed the mansion.
    did you read Disassembled or the lead up to House of M? they (the Avengers and X-Men) were about to murder Wanda. and was the public aware of the celestial threat? i don't remember the Avengers consulting anyone.

    who's up front?
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 01-21-2020 at 11:09 AM.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    several of them were present in Genosha. several of them helped with the clean up. and they also housed them afterwards.
    They went to help during Genosha attack or they were living in Genosha?
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20191201044412

    they died in what ? five minutes?
    Last edited by hulkling; 01-21-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    did you read Disassembled or the lead up to House of M? they (the Avengers and X-Men) were about to murder Wanda. and was the public aware of the celestial threat? i don't remember the Avengers consulting anyone.

    who's up front?
    No that is after the problem with Wanda was a problem of public image for the mutants because they didnt wanted a dangerous mutant destorying everything. I mean where they were during the attack of the mansion .

    and the celestial arc began with the bodies of dead Celestials falling over all the world so I bet they were pretty aware of the situation

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Comic books pretty much HAVE to work that way though. It's not like the X-Men regularly show up to help the Avengers or Fantastic Four in their books either. It happens every once in awhile when writers want to do a cross over or team up, but as a general rule of thumb the Avengers resolve problems in an Avengers book, the FF resolve problems in an FF book, and the X-Men resolve problems in an X-Men book. Despite the fact that historically all these teams operate within a couple miles of each other. When Galactus shows up, I don't hear Reed complaining: "Where the heck are the X-Men?" and he shouldn't. It's not their book.

    Obviously the X-Men writers COULD have other heroes doing more in their books if they really wanted too... but again, it's the X-mens book.
    Actually, in Contamination, it was something of a plot point that the other heroes couldn't contact the X-Men, who would have been really useful against the killer fungus.

  10. #190
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    No that is after the problem with Wanda was a problem of public image for the mutants because they didnt wanted a dangerous mutant destorying everything. I mean where they were during the attack of the mansion .

    and the celestial arc began with the bodies of dead Celestials falling over all the world so I bet they were pretty aware of the situation
    That and the Avengers weren't officially formed yet. The arc started with Steve, Tony and Thor meeting to discuss reforming the Avengers over drinks but that's all it was, a discussion, nothing official had been agreed upon. Throughout the entirety of the Celestial arc, several of the current Avengers, themselves, kept stating "I'm NOT an Avenger". It wasn't until afterwards that they officially became a team (and the new team was composed entirely of the heroes who bothered to show up and deal with the final host + Blade and now, Nat). So yeah, it is suspect that not too many heroes showed up to fight something that was supposedly meant to herald the end of the world, the F4 weren't back on earth yet, so they get a pass, but you do have to wonder where everyone else was (besides those who did show up).


    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-21-2020 at 02:01 PM.

  11. #191
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    that happened after several attempts by humanity to murder them. there are always humans actively preparing to engage in genocide. the mutants are simply fighting fire with hot water. and it was really only Charles Xavier preaching tolerance. and he has been killed and/or imprisoned more than once. where were Chuck's illuminati buddies when he was rotting away in an operation zero tolerance cell? where were they when Genosha was flattened?
    The problem is people keep using the blanket term "humanity" is all out to get the mutants. That is like saying all Muslims are responsible for the act of the radical few. Krakoa is not just going after or trying to effect the ones going after them they are trying to in essence take over the whole world with their influence and put all of humanity under their thumb. The vast majority of humans in the MCU have done nothing to the mutants, and probably don't care about them either way. Now with the mutants taking this strong arm approach of "we this tiny group are going to control the future of the planet because we have the power" well now they are effecting the lives of humanity as a whole which is going to lead to public opinion swaying so far against them that sooner or latter it is going to lead to all out conflict. It does not help when half of the mutants ruling body are all former evil villains which the general public won't know about but you can be sure the other heroes and world leaders do.

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The problem is people keep using the blanket term "humanity" is all out to get the mutants.
    human government. is that better? need i remind everyone that Graydon Creed would have been president had his mother not shot him?
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    human government. is that better? need i remind everyone that Graydon Creed would have been president had his mother not shot him?
    More the US than the human goverment, there isnt any shared goverment between humans ( well the UN but who cares about them now?)

  14. #194
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    The current governments of the world have been shown in several books as being corrupt and not wanting or caring about what is best for their constituents. The Immortal Hulk, Avengers, Invaders, and Captain America books have all, very recently, addressed just how corrupt these current governments (of the world) are. In Immortal Hulk Bruce revealed that the US government had spent 1.2 billion dollars on a program meant to dissect his body and make weapons from it, the book has also, quite vividly, shown that everything is being controlled by major corporations like Roxxon to the detriment of mankind and the environment. Avengers revealed that government officials are in the pockets of Mephisto and not just America, but he has influence over Russian's Winter Guard and Atlantis' Defenders of the Deep as well. Invaders showed a UN representative in the pocket of Roxxon. It also showed Roxxon performing human experimentation. The Captain America book has not only shown Russian collusion, the press being bought and paid for, as well as shown just how Fisk overextends his power as mayor of New York, but has also suggested that the bulk of the NYPD are actually henchmen for the Power Elite (i.e. the Lukins, Red Skull, the Chadwicks, Selene and Fisk). You have to feel sorry for normal, regular people in this scenario. Particularly in Hulk, because Banner's broadcast DID get the public fired up and there is protesting, but Roxxon's power is too great and the government does nothing.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    The current governments of the world have been shown in several books as being corrupt and not wanting or caring about what is best for their constituents. The Immortal Hulk, Avengers, Invaders, and Captain America books have all, very recently, addressed just how corrupt these current governments (of the world) are. In Immortal Hulk Bruce revealed that the US government had spent 1.2 billion dollars on a program meant to dissect his body and make weapons from it, the book has also, quite vividly, shown that everything is being controlled by major corporations like Roxxon to the detriment of mankind and the environment. Avengers revealed that government officials are in the pockets of Mephisto and not just America, but he has influence over Russian's Winter Guard and Atlantis' Defenders of the Deep as well. Invaders showed a UN representative in the pocket of Roxxon. It also showed Roxxon performing human experimentation. The Captain America book has not only shown Russian collusion, the press being bought and paid for, as well as shown just how Fisk overextends his power as mayor of New York, but has also suggested that the bulk of the NYPD are actually henchmen for the Power Elite (i.e. the Lukins, Red Skull, the Chadwicks, Selene and Fisk). You have to feel sorry for normal, regular people in this scenario. Particularly in Hulk, because Banner's broadcast DID get the public fired up and there is protesting, but Roxxon's power is too great and the government does nothing.
    Yeah they are corrupt but if you look into the goverment of Krakoa is not behind them in corruption. Shaw selling the drugs for his own profit and plotting against other members of the goverment, Apocalypse using Rogue and starting a war against otherworld and Sinister already with his own secret plans. I dont think the X-books are selling Krakoa as an example of a perfect goverment.

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