If the Dawn of X relaunch has an X-Men/Spider-Man crossover, what should it be?

[Lukmendes]

Remember the 90s cartoon? Felicia looked like this:

Yup, blonde love interest.

That's also the one time, and we're talking about 616 lol.

Reminds me I should try to watch the rest of this cartoon, but it ain't easy... Think I stopped in episode 2? It's Scorpion's debut, and the pacing is silver age level of bad fast pacing, the battles look eh too because of the censorship, though the writers do seem to understand Spider-Man, but I'm not sure if that's enough for me to put up with the pacing and meh battles lol.

[Snoop Dogg]

Now I do want a Spider-Man and the X-Men limited series just to see what absurd and/or contrived hoops they'll jump through to make 2019 Peter relevant to 2019 mutants.

[Digifiend]

Reminds me I should try to watch the rest of this cartoon, but it ain't easy... Think I stopped in episode 2? It's Scorpion's debut, and the pacing is silver age level of bad fast pacing, the battles look eh too because of the censorship, though the writers do seem to understand Spider-Man, but I'm not sure if that's enough for me to put up with the pacing and meh battles lol.

The Scorpion episode is the second one in production order, but was episode 6 in airing order.

[Huntsman Spider]

Cyclops is basically "Xavier School's professional wallflower" i.e. who Peter was before he got bitten by a spider.



In Jason Aaron's Thor 2018 he showed up as a bad guy and I think Hickman has wiped the slate clean for the X-Men for the most part.



Well somewhat, although I wouldn't say Scott-Jean-Emma is in any sense comparable to Peter-Gwen-MJ. Or that Jean Grey is the 'Gwen'.

Hmm, ok, then. I wouldn't really think so, either, though the major commonality I was trying to cite between Mary Jane Watson and Emma Frost was that both characters got a lot of crap thrown at them by some fans (and some creators) for their sexuality, said fans and creators either implying or explicitly stating that disqualified them as suitable love interests for heroes like Spider-Man and Cyclops. In contrast, Jean Grey and Gwen Stacy were rather idealized by many of those same fans, especially after their deaths, and that also played a big role in the negative reception MJ and Emma got from those corners of the fandom (and some comics professionals as well). Oh, and both of them have been or are currently being written by Leah Williams, so that's another thing they have in common, especially regarding the issue of more nuanced depictions of female characters beyond the "good girl"/"bad girl" binary.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Hmm, ok, then. I wouldn't really think so, either, though the major commonality I was trying to cite between Mary Jane Watson and Emma Frost was that both characters got a lot of crap thrown at them by some fans (and some creators) for their sexuality, said fans and creators either implying or explicitly stating that disqualified them as suitable love interests for heroes like Spider-Man and Cyclops.

I agree that both characters got crap for a lot of stuff. But in the case of Emma Frost, she seduced Scott in what are essentially therapy sessions. She and Scott also made out on Jean's grave. Now you can justify that in a "all's fair in love and war" sense and you can say that Scott himself is a major cheater who walked out on Madelyne Pryor to be with Jean. That's true. But there are actual reasons for why some fans would have issues with Emma and Scott's relationship though ultimately I think that it made them more interesting characters.

That scene in Grant Morrison's New X-Men where Emma after being caught by Jean talks to Logan and then breaks down crying about how much she loves Scott is genuinely moving, because you realized that this wasn't some power move for her. IT came from a real place even if she was misguided and wrong in how she did it.

In contrast, Jean Grey and Gwen Stacy were rather idealized by many of those same fans, especially after their deaths, and that also played a big role in the negative reception MJ and Emma got from those corners of the fandom (and some comics professionals as well).

Well yeah, but Jean did do stuff that merited idealization since Claremont made her into an awesome character and so on, whereas Gwen Stacy was this character everyone said was awesome but always came short. So there are more reasons for Jean fans to latch on to then Gwen fans do. The most interesting thing that happened to Gwen was her dying but I don't think that's the case with Jean. Yeah Dark phoenix saga and her sacrifice at the end is great but it's not the major defining element to her.

When Jean came back from the dead and married Scott, both of them became fairly reduced versions of who they were. In Scott's case he walked out of his wife and child to be with Jean. And that alone warranted Scott cheating on Jean with Emma ("psychic affair" and whatnot) because it became part of Scott's character that he would cheat with his partners.

Oh, and both of them have been or are currently being written by Leah Williams, so that's another thing they have in common, especially regarding the issue of more nuanced depictions of female characters beyond the "good girl"/"bad girl" binary.

That's true. Which is why I think a crossover between MJ and Emma is interesting.

For me the thing about Spider-Man and X-Men crossovers is to see the characters mash up and interact and bounce with each other. I want to see MJ and Emma interact and talk because I think it would be interesting to see. Not only because they have some stuff in common but because they are these two charismatic characters and it would be amazing to see how that conversation goes.

In general that's what I think a Spider-Man and X-Men crossover should focus on, diversity of character interaction and so on.

[Bloxer]

Hmm, ok, then. I wouldn't really think so, either, though the major commonality I was trying to cite between Mary Jane Watson and Emma Frost was that both characters got a lot of crap thrown at them by some fans (and some creators) for their sexuality, said fans and creators either implying or explicitly stating that disqualified them as suitable love interests for heroes like Spider-Man and Cyclops. In contrast, Jean Grey and Gwen Stacy were rather idealized by many of those same fans, especially after their deaths, and that also played a big role in the negative reception MJ and Emma got from those corners of the fandom (and some comics professionals as well). Oh, and both of them have been or are currently being written by Leah Williams, so that's another thing they have in common, especially regarding the issue of more nuanced depictions of female characters beyond the "good girl"/"bad girl" binary.

If I'm not mistaken Emma is a former villain who did and condoned some very terrible and evil things, and to an extent still does so even after joining the X-Men, and her relationship with Cyclops started with manipulation and as some interpret it rape on her part, while MJ was just a party girl so I'm not sure its very fair to compare them

[Huntsman Spider]

I agree that both characters got crap for a lot of stuff. But in the case of Emma Frost, she seduced Scott in what are essentially therapy sessions. She and Scott also made out on Jean's grave. Now you can justify that in a "all's fair in love and war" sense and you can say that Scott himself is a major cheater who walked out on Madelyne Pryor to be with Jean. That's true. But there are actual reasons for why some fans would have issues with Emma and Scott's relationship though ultimately I think that it made them more interesting characters.

That scene in Grant Morrison's New X-Men where Emma after being caught by Jean talks to Logan and then breaks down crying about how much she loves Scott is genuinely moving, because you realized that this wasn't some power move for her. IT came from a real place even if she was misguided and wrong in how she did it.



Well yeah, but Jean did do stuff that merited idealization since Claremont made her into an awesome character and so on, whereas Gwen Stacy was this character everyone said was awesome but always came short. So there are more reasons for Jean fans to latch on to then Gwen fans do. The most interesting thing that happened to Gwen was her dying but I don't think that's the case with Jean. Yeah Dark phoenix saga and her sacrifice at the end is great but it's not the major defining element to her.

When Jean came back from the dead and married Scott, both of them became fairly reduced versions of who they were. In Scott's case he walked out of his wife and child to be with Jean. And that alone warranted Scott cheating on Jean with Emma ("psychic affair" and whatnot) because it became part of Scott's character that he would cheat with his partners.



That's true. Which is why I think a crossover between MJ and Emma is interesting.

For me the thing about Spider-Man and X-Men crossovers is to see the characters mash up and interact and bounce with each other. I want to see MJ and Emma interact and talk because I think it would be interesting to see. Not only because they have some stuff in common but because they are these two charismatic characters and it would be amazing to see how that conversation goes.

In general that's what I think a Spider-Man and X-Men crossover should focus on, diversity of character interaction and so on.

You raise a good point about how Emma's relationship with Scott started. That was definitely a severe violation of the trust between a therapist and a patient, in more than one sense of that word. As for your thoughts on Spider-Man/X-Men interactions, I would definitely agree.

[Inversed]

The interesting question I wonder is, WOULD Emma want to work alongside MJ in the first place? Especially now with everyone's "only mutants" approach, what would be the reason for them to end up interacting? Maybe I could see, connecting to a point someone mentioned earlier, MJ ends up starring in a film about the mutants (possibly playing Emma herself) which leads into conflict when she tries to shut it down. Think it would be fun way to get them to interact with each other, and just like her appearance in Jessica Jones, can work really well opposite other MU characters, though I just don't see her right now going out of her way to work together with her.

[Desmark]

Mysterio masquerading as Xavier sends the X-MEN into deaths jaws and they start to hunt him down to find out how he managed to pull it off. Mysterio fearful of their retaliation convinces Peter to prevent his extradition to Krakoa to which Peter reluctantly agreed if Mephisto turns himself in first. It will turn out that it was Kindred in the guise of Mysterio who orchestrated the entire plot to pitch them against each other.

[Ursalink]

Well, if I have to guess. I believe Spider-Man would be trapped in a serious problem against the X-Men. He will definitely say outloud that everything they are doing is wrong.

+ Cloning mutants to resurrect them? Considering Spider-Man's own experiences with the Jackal and the Inheritors, he will definitely oppose that.
+ Claiming themselves as Gods? I believe Peter will try once agains to show them the meaning of "With great power comes great responsibility".
+ Mutants claiming themselves above regular humans for what they have done to them in the past? They should explore Spider-Man's own lifetime.

[Lukmendes]

Hmm, ok, then. I wouldn't really think so, either, though the major commonality I was trying to cite between Mary Jane Watson and Emma Frost was that both characters got a lot of crap thrown at them by some fans (and some creators) for their sexuality, said fans and creators either implying or explicitly stating that disqualified them as suitable love interests for heroes like Spider-Man and Cyclops. In contrast, Jean Grey and Gwen Stacy were rather idealized by many of those same fans, especially after their deaths, and that also played a big role in the negative reception MJ and Emma got from those corners of the fandom (and some comics professionals as well). Oh, and both of them have been or are currently being written by Leah Williams, so that's another thing they have in common, especially regarding the issue of more nuanced depictions of female characters beyond the "good girl"/"bad girl" binary.

Those are more superficial similarities than anything, like, we had Emma using her position as a "therapist" to have an affair with Cyke, which even if you don't interpret it as rape/molest, it shows that she's a bitch regardless of her intentions, MJ doesn't have anything like that even when Peter's life was in love triangles.

The interesting question I wonder is, WOULD Emma want to work alongside MJ in the first place? Especially now with everyone's "only mutants" approach, what would be the reason for them to end up interacting? Maybe I could see, connecting to a point someone mentioned earlier, MJ ends up starring in a film about the mutants (possibly playing Emma herself) which leads into conflict when she tries to shut it down. Think it would be fun way to get them to interact with each other, and just like her appearance in Jessica Jones, can work really well opposite other MU characters, though I just don't see her right now going out of her way to work together with her.

I mean, Emma is in a position where she does legal business with humans, while Black King (I forget his name) is doing illegal ones, maybe she could just use MJ for the legal ones, trying to have a nice, public image.

By the way, I forgot to say this, but if Spidey interacts with the X-Men, at the moment he learns of the clones, his reaction has to be something among the lines "Guys, what the fuck?".

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The interesting question I wonder is, WOULD Emma want to work alongside MJ in the first place? Especially now with everyone's "only mutants" approach, what would be the reason for them to end up interacting? Maybe I could see, connecting to a point someone mentioned earlier, MJ ends up starring in a film about the mutants (possibly playing Emma herself) which leads into conflict when she tries to shut it down. Think it would be fun way to get them to interact with each other, and just like her appearance in Jessica Jones, can work really well opposite other MU characters, though I just don't see her right now going out of her way to work together with her.

ON a Doylist level it depends if the editors of X-Men and Spider-Man want there to be a story/crossover, if Spencer is game (which I think he would be/could be) or the other writers in the Spidey-Office want to get in. ON a Watsonian level (and don't make the obvious joke here), there's ways you can connect Peter with the X-Men side of things. The Thieves' Guild is a part of Spencer's story as is Arcade and both are X-Men rogues. Kraven the Hunter raided the stash of the High Evolutionary in the Savage Land (which is also in the X-Men side of things). Miles Morales is friends with Fabio Medina. So there are some obvious hooks in.

Less obvious ones are, Jameson's history where he at one time opposed the X-Men and other times supported them. What is the Bugle's attitude to Krakoa? Stuff like Orchis and so on might be interested in scooping up left-over Parker tech and/or recruiting some Spider-Man rogues. Maybe Alchemax is giving them funding? Since a big part of the X-Men project at Krakoa is building a culture and a society (and yeah, mutants too live in a society these days), you can involve MJ, a character with keen artistic interests in that. Mary Jane also has a history and concern with migrants and so on, as is her cousin Kristy Watson (as per Conway's story in that anthology that came out this year), so if there's a camp persecuting mutants, that could involve Kristy, MJ and maybe Kitty Pryde and the Marauders.

In terms of doing something altogether new...
-- Having MJ meet Emma Frost could be interesting because MJ is potentially one of the few characters (both human and mutant) who could, potentially, face Emma and hold her own. Emma always sucks the oxygen in the room and used to being the alpha woman so put her with MJ and it could be interesting. Sure Emma could read MJ's mind but she's enough of a telepath to know when game's game.
-- Having Peter meet Scott Summers could be because Scott is virtually quip-proof. So there could be a hilarious comedy between seeing Slim and Pete square off since Scott is the best straight man there ever is. You could do a buddy cop team-up between them. There are also deeper stuff. Like here's an imaginary conversation.

[Peter and Scott go to a bar, Peter orders egg-cream, and Scott orders one too]
Peter -- My last few years have been crazy. I had by body hijacked by a supervillain.
Scott -- That happened to me too. Sucks.
Peter -- Wow really. Mine was Doctor Octopus.
Scott -- Apocalypse.
Peter -- Weird, I kind of said that me and Doctor Octopus are square and then he went to the West Coast.
Scott -- I am right now square with Apocalypse too. He's technically my superior on the Krakoan government council.
Peter -- I also got cloned a bunch of times by this creepy dude called Jackal.
Scott -- I have this guy, Mr. Sinister who has an entire eugenics program dedicated to me.
Peter -- My parents were secret agents and it turns out I have a long-lost sister who's one too.
Scott -- My dad's alive and a space pirate. My mother was a concubine to a space warlord and had a rapechild who's my other brother.
Peter -- I have a complicated love life. I fell in love with this one girl, but she hated Spider-Man and then she died. I then had a relationship with MJ, and then with a supervillainess...
Scott -- Let me stop you right there. I fell in love with Jean Grey then she died, only for a cosmic entity to create an homunculus who I then made love to atop a mesa, and then that homunculus died in the moon, and then I fell in love and married a woman who turned out to be a clone of the same Jean created by Mr. Sinister, and then it turns out the real Jean was alive, and I walked out on my clone-wife and son (who's not a clone but was displaced in time), and then I married Jean but then I cheated on her with Emma and then Jean died again, and then I died, and then Jean came back to life, and then I came back to life, and now I'm in a poly relationship with her and Wolverine.
Peter -- Okay, you win.

[Huntsman Spider]

I love that imaginary conversation you set up between Peter and Scott, Revolutionary_Jack. Hell, that entire last post of yours was teeming with intriguing ideas, especially Alchemax as part of the Orchis alliance, since All-New Wolverine (starring Laura "X-23" Kinney when ANAD Marvel launched after Secret Wars) opened with a branch called Alchemax Genetics getting ahold of Laura's DNA and using it to create assassins called "The Sisters," the sole survivor being the ever-irrepressible and adorable Gabby, who was adopted by Laura as her sister. Considering Alchemax's origins as the "legitimate" successor to the currently defunct Oscorp (on account of Norman Osborn having long been outed as a psychotic supervillain) and Osborn's role in setting up the Clone Saga . . . it does make a lot more sense.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Hell, that entire last post of yours was teeming with intriguing ideas, especially Alchemax as part of the Orchis alliance, since All-New Wolverine (starring Laura "X-23" Kinney when ANAD Marvel launched after Secret Wars) opened with a branch called Alchemax Genetics getting ahold of Laura's DNA and using it to create assassins called "The Sisters," the sole survivor being the ever-irrepressible and adorable Gabby, who was adopted by Laura as her sister. Considering Alchemax's origins as the "legitimate" successor to the currently defunct Oscorp (on account of Norman Osborn having long been outed as a psychotic supervillain) and Osborn's role in setting up the Clone Saga . . . it does make a lot more sense.

Osborn also has connections to the X-Men, like during the Dark Reign era, it was revealed in one comic that he used to visit the Hellfire Club and he had Emma Frost as part of the Cabal (she eventually betrayed him of course).

So yeah, there are tons of ways you can tie in Spidey with the X-Men.

Also from Spider-Man's time fighting the Tri-Sentinel, he's the only real non-mutant superhero who faced off, fought, and defeated those genocide robots so there might be some amount of respect for Spidey among mutantkind.

[Huntsman Spider]

Osborn also has connections to the X-Men, like during the Dark Reign era, it was revealed in one comic that he used to visit the Hellfire Club and he had Emma Frost as part of the Cabal (she eventually betrayed him of course).

So yeah, there are tons of ways you can tie in Spidey with the X-Men.

Also from Spider-Man's time fighting the Tri-Sentinel, he's the only real non-mutant superhero who faced off, fought, and defeated those genocide robots so there might be some amount of respect for Spidey among mutantkind.

Good point on the last one, and speaking of Sentinels, I remember he and Ben Reilly fought one when one of the Spider-Man issues of the time tied into Onslaught. Said Sentinel also detected Mary Jane's pregnancy as some kind of genetic anomaly, hinting that baby May might or would have been a mutant.