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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Dr. Poison, I read the issue because of your glowing review and because of my curiosity regarding Orlando's upcoming run. I must say that I am truly impressed.

    I loved Diana's voice. Similar to the Bloodlines movie, I loved when Diana would matter of factly state what she would not allow. I also liked that Steve was a tad more violent and less diplomatic than Diana. The action was exciting and while I've never cared for Grodd, he at least made a good antagonist in this issue. I also have high hopes for the reimagined Warmaster, i.e. Paula Von Gunther.

    I reserve the right to change my opinion, but based on this annual, I'm really excited for Orlando's upcoming issues.
    Wow - glad to hear that I inspired you to give this book a shot! Glad you enjoyed it!
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Gotham City Monsters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Kind of rushed but pretty good. A major step up from the last few issues of the main book. And there is potential conflict between Diana and Steve that is actually interesting.

    Helen to Paula happened to quickly. But it is cool that this issue set up Paula, Gundra and Kung. Hopefully all three go on to play big roles.


    Where was Kung mentioned in this annual? I must have missed that.
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Gotham City Monsters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    SiegePerilous02 - When did the issue set up Kung? I must have missed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Where was Kung mentioned in this annual? I must have missed that.
    One of the other agents Helen is graduating with is named Tommy Morita, which is Kung's real name.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    One of the other agents Helen is graduating with is named Tommy Morita, which is Kung's real name.

    Good catch!
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Gotham City Monsters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Yes, it was exciting. Orlando’s pleasure in writing the character is palpable. Such a nice change of pace from what I feel you get with Big Names who want to take on Diana, not because they’re into her, but because of the character’s status and the desire to “fix” WW.

    Great points already made in this thread by those that loved the annual and those that didn’t quite love it.

    For me it recalled the energy of Messner Loebs’ work. A good thing.
    Last edited by Largo161; 10-31-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #21
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Oh yeah, I forgot this was an event tie in, like, what is it even about? Is Leviathan different than Forever Evil 2? I genuinely can't comprehend these events.

    In short, without spoilers, 'Leviathan' has done away with all the multiple organizations in the DCU (DEO, ARGUS, etc), wiping them out but leaving certain people alive (General Lane, Steve Trevor, Amanda Waller and others).

    Lois and Batman (among others) are trying to track down just who/what Leviathan is, but at all the sites where the bases have been flattened, there are no bodies. Apparently Leviathan (both an organization and a person) is trying to rebuild the various agencies as one super-agency.

    I think there's one issue left in the mini-series?

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Good catch!
    Thanks!

    I hope Paula isn't permanently tied to the Leviathan storyline and she can stand on her own. I also wondered why she's suddenly calling herself Paula instead of "Helen Von Gunther." Is it a nod to her adoptive parents? Maybe Orlando should have called her Paula from the start, though that would have ruined the surprise I guess.

    The Sons of Liberty are a good way to potentially re-introduced Armageddon, Red Panzer and others. I hope Gundra shows up as well.

  8. #23
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Who wants to bet me that Helen van gunther wasn't the only child pulled from a burning building, that day? I'd wager there was an infant girl pulled from those flames, beforr or after Helen, ..and she grew up to be Donna Troy.

    That woild be ironic, if so. Without Diana's saving Helen and subsequent creation of Warmaster, ..there would be no Wonder Girl. I love it!

    Don't like that the story makes Van Gunther nearly a decade younger, than Diana, but...oh well. I can live with it, and it's a solidly good supervillain origin story...great start for an arch-nem...

    Greater start for Mr Orlando.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 10-31-2019 at 04:57 PM.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  9. #24
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    One of the other agents Helen is graduating with is named Tommy Morita, which is Kung's real name.
    Ohhhh...so a google search reveals Kung was a Bronze Age creation. The name wasn’t ringing a bell for me even though I was reading the book at that time. Interesting!

  10. #25
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    I enjoyed it; it was fun, if not perfect, and I'll agree that it's the most satisfying annual in quite awhile, maybe since the Eclipso annual.

    I think Helen's abrupt transformation might have been more compelling if she'd been bound to a chair or table and there'd been some sort of hypnotic/persuasive element introduced, a la the transformation of Debbie Domaine from friend into foe. I suspect that what Orlando's playing with is how good people can make terrible choices based on misleading stories and misrepresented media; it's just a little harder to swallow because Helen is shown to think critically, understands that ARGUS - an organization she works for and trusts - has been acting unethically, and is top of her class. Why wouldn't she question a story from a stranger with images devoid of sound? I mean, one just wants to scream "It's a trap!" I can understand the reasoning he's following; I just don't think it quite holds up to scrutiny. At the same time, smart, thinking people do make illogical choices every day.

    Another thing to remember is that Paula Von Gunther was the first villain to be reformed in Wonder Woman, and she became a valuable citizen in the Amazon society. I predict that the truth will out and Helen/Paula will be reformed. Even Helen's creative solution to modifying Gorilla City tech hearkens back to golden age-Paula's scientific expertise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What do you think of this post's views?

    https://themyskira.tumblr.com/post/1...ww-villain-why
    I think that the idea that Orlando is "unwittingly" propping up neo-nazis by creating the Norse tie to Gudra is rubbish. I suspect the connection is witting, and it's also very clear that the Leviathan representative is twisting the truth and that the neo-nazis aren't the good guys. He isn't creating a neo-nazi hero; he's creating a misguided person adopting a hateful ideology. That's not propping up neo-nazis.

    As to whether Diana is an asshole who's hid the truth...well, it's pretty clear that had she agreed to tell Helen the truth when she was old enough to understand, this would never have happened, would it? I don't think it stains her character, exactly; it's just clearly a mistake borne of a "blessed savior" moment.
    Last edited by Frank; 11-01-2019 at 08:49 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    In short, without spoilers, 'Leviathan' has done away with all the multiple organizations in the DCU (DEO, ARGUS, etc), wiping them out but leaving certain people alive (General Lane, Steve Trevor, Amanda Waller and others).

    Lois and Batman (among others) are trying to track down just who/what Leviathan is, but at all the sites where the bases have been flattened, there are no bodies. Apparently Leviathan (both an organization and a person) is trying to rebuild the various agencies as one super-agency.

    I think there's one issue left in the mini-series?
    Thanks for the info. The funny thing is that I first started reading DC Comics over Marvel because I didn't want to trudge through an endless stream of events and now we're getting back to back issues of Wonder Woman that tie into events.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    But to me, Veronica Cale is Paula von Gunther's true spiritual successor. What Orlando has here is—so far—a borrowed name put on a generic warrior woman with ersatz Nazi iconography.
    I have to disagree on the first part. There are surface level similarities between Veronica and Paula, the most obvious being that they are both mortal villainous blondes who are motivated to villainy at least in part due to a kidnapped daughter. But that's pretty much it. Gerta von Gunther and her plight kind of come out of nowhere in the original Wonder Woman #3 as a kind of short cut to redeeming Paula, who prior to that was too gung ho about being allied with the Nazis to really come off as being a reluctant participant. While Gerta herself would go on to be an amusing character, her initial appearance makes Paula less interesting. I think Paula being a foe that is reformed and guided away from a toxic ideology is interesting enough on its own, and her daughter being held hostage and making her evil is significantly more of a let down and less of a challenge for Diana.

    Veronica's plight with her daughter makes her sympathetic to a large degree and layered, but she has plenty of her own faults that her daughter's kidnapping can't excuse. I think her pride is a big one, she never once thinks to ask Diana for help in the Godwatch storyline in part I feel because she wants to get herself out of the situation. Phobos and Deimos, and by an unwitting extension Diana, made her feel powerless and wounded her pride so she wants to screw them all over in addition to saving Izzy. Whatever other issues I have with Wilson's writing of her, I'm glad she didn't have Veronica turn over a new leaf after being reunited with Izzy.

    I do agree that the jury is still out on this new Paula being an effective revamp on her own merits. But even if she was truer to the classic Paula, I think there is room for both her and Cale in the WW mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I think that the idea that Orlando is "unwittingly" propping up neo-nazis by creating the Norse tie to Gudra is rubbish. I suspect the connection is witting, and it's also very clear that the Leviathan representative is twisting the truth and that the neo-nazis aren't the good guys. He isn't creating a neo-nazi hero; he's creating a misguided person adopting a hateful ideology. That's not propping up neo-nazis.

    As to whether Diana is an asshole who's hid the truth...well, it's pretty clear that had she agreed to tell Helen the truth when she was old enough to understand, this would never have happened, would it? I don't think it stains her character, exactly; it's just clearly a mistake borne of a "blessed savior" moment.
    Yeah I think that was kind of ridiculous. Even if they have legit family ties to Gundra, I don't think think the book is suddenly saying "yay Neo-Nazis." Paula's turn to villainy is clearly a sad moment and is not endorsed by the book.

    Also Leviathan is clearly full of crap or not telling the full story, so either
    A. the Von Gunthers are not tied to the Valkyries, and he's lying
    B. Gundra and all the Valkyries, who are said to have attacked the Amazons (whom we KNOW are the heroes), are villains so she's related to an evil Norse figure, whose descendants inflicted great evil and hate on the world. In which case, they are all still horrible people and the potential Norse ties don't change that.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What do you think of this post's views?

    https://themyskira.tumblr.com/post/1...ww-villain-why
    Norse mythology does regularly get appropriated by white supremacist groups, though in reading more into Gundra the character has had a connection into Nazism prior. Not in the original Marston comics though, at least from what I remember. I don't think having it be present in a story like this is a major boon to people who want to pretend that Odinism is the true religion of the white race.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I found this story to be quite epic. Orlando brings the fire after a lackluster few years on Wonder Woman. Seeing Diana face off against Grodd was a nice change of pace. I loved how Orlando had her block Grodd's mental attacks by tying the Lasso around her head! Even better was the last page reveal with the rebooted Paula Von Gunther! I low how Orlando tied her to Gundra the Valkyrie! I'm excited for what comes next!
    While not perfect, it was a damn site better than anything GWW or Robinson have produced in the last four years.

    I give it four stars.

    And GREAT to see the lasso’s soul searching power from the Simone run used again

    PS interesting they mentioned Valkyries. I wonder if Orlando will make a connection with the ODYSSEY OF THE AMAZONS mini that came our a few years ago.
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-01-2019 at 08:48 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I think Helen's abrupt transformation might have been more compelling if she'd been bound to a chair or table and there'd been some sort of hypnotic/persuasive element introduced, a la the transformation of Debbie Domaine from friend into foe. I suspect that what Orlando's playing with is how good people can make terrible choices based on misleading stories and misrepresented media;
    He is doing a terrible job at it then, because he doesn't build it up enough. Also, note that the key part of Leviathan's spiel is that she is a descendant of a long line of warriors that were wrongfully attacked by the Amazons, directly playing into the trope that bad blood turns one bad. Bad blood trumps love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I think that the idea that Orlando is "unwittingly" propping up neo-nazis by creating the Norse tie to Gudra is rubbish. I suspect the connection is witting, and it's also very clear that the Leviathan representative is twisting the truth and that the neo-nazis aren't the good guys. He isn't creating a neo-nazi hero; he's creating a misguided person adopting a hateful ideology. That's not propping up neo-nazis.
    I think you are misreading what the themyskira tumblr was saying. It isn't saying that Orlando is propping up white supremacists, but that "Orlando is unwittingly aping neo-Nazi propaganda".

    If this was Rucka, or Simone, or Wilson, or Tynion doing this plot point I wouldn't be worried, because those are all ideologically aware people. Orlando has rather shown the opposite so far, and might very well be acting as a useful idiot for white supremacists. It's not smelling yet, but I can imagine the smell coming later on. No matter what, it doesn't heighten my thoughts on Orlando's judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I have to disagree on the first part. There are surface level similarities between Veronica and Paula, the most obvious being that they are both mortal villainous blondes who are motivated to villainy at least in part due to a kidnapped daughter.
    That's why I said "spiritual successor". Veronica Cale and Paula von Gunther are different characters, but they fill similar roles. Both are great inventors, but not in the mad scientist mold. They wield great resources and are great organisers. Their opposition to Diana is grounded in ideology. They are both successful women that succeeded in a patriarchal environment, and defends it.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    PS interesting they mentioned Valkyries. I wonder if Orlando will make a connection with the ODYSSEY OF THE AMAZONS mini that came our a few years ago.
    God, I hope not, that story was abysmal. Though given Orlando, I wouldn't be surprised. If he brings it back up.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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