Wonder Woman Annual #3 Spoilers/Discussion

[SiegePerilous02]

I think you are misreading what the themyskira tumblr was saying. It isn't saying that Orlando is propping up white supremacists, but that "Orlando is unwittingly aping neo-Nazi propaganda".

If this was Rucka, or Simone, or Wilson, or Tynion doing this plot point I wouldn't be worried, because those are all ideologically aware people. Orlando has rather shown the opposite so far, and might very well be acting as a useful idiot for white supremacists. It's not smelling yet, but I can imagine the smell coming later on. No matter what, it doesn't heighten my thoughts on Orlando's judgment.

But if the end result is that the neo-Nazis are still clearly under the sway of an evil ideology and are not to be emulated, does them being connected to a Norse figure matter? Some of their BS propaganda may have an element of truth to it within the context of the fantastical DCU, but that doesn't change the fact that everything they do and stand for is evil. It's just a convenient excuse and (from their POV) justification for them to put evil into the world. Would he be a useful idiot to them if he still has Diana defeat Paula and the rest of the organization and reform her, standing against that way of thought and clearly presenting it as a misguided view?

Some of the other writers would probably handle it better overall. I don't know if Wilson would be one of them after having her run conclude. She may be ideologically aware, but that likely wouldn't trickle down writing a competent Diana.

That's why I said "spiritual successor". Veronica Cale and Paula von Gunther are different characters, but they fill similar roles. Both are great inventors, but not in the mad scientist mold. They wield great resources and are great organisers. Their opposition to Diana is grounded in ideology. They are both successful women that succeeded in a patriarchal environment, and defends it.

Fair enough

[kjn]

But if the end result is that the neo-Nazis are still clearly under the sway of an evil ideology and are not to be emulated, does them being connected to a Norse figure matter? Some of their BS propaganda may have an element of truth to it within the context of the fantastical DCU, but that doesn't change the fact that everything they do and stand for is evil. It's just a convenient excuse and (from their POV) justification for them to put evil into the world. Would he be a useful idiot to them if he still has Diana defeat Paula and the rest of the organization and reform her, standing against that way of thought and clearly presenting it as a misguided view?

This is starting to stray off-topic, but one of the things that various far-right and neo-fascist groups do here in Scandinavia, and are successful at, is appropriating culturally important symbols and imagery for their use only. I believe the same is true in other places. Norse mythology and old norse symbols are a favourite target of this, partly since the original Nazis were happy to use that imagery, and most people here have a positive relation to them. The result is that they create a space where they are the arbiters of what is patriotic and also deny those same symbols to their opponents. Normal people who once would wear a Thor's hammer as a piece of jewelry quit doing so, because they become thought of as racists, and so on.

What Orlando is doing here is setting up a situation where the neo-nazi Paula von Gunther is the true inheritor of the Valkyries. It doesn't yet stink, but I'm afraid that it will.

[Guy_McNichts]

Would a possible solution be to establish that Gundra is/was a renegade Valkyrie who went against or betrayed her sisters by siding with the Nazis?

[Agent Z]

Would a possible solution be to establish that Gundra is/was a renegade Valkyrie who went against or betrayed her sisters by siding with the Nazis?

That could work.

[brettc1]

He is doing a terrible job at it then, because he doesn't build it up enough. Also, note that the key part of Leviathan's spiel is that she is a descendant of a long line of warriors that were wrongfully attacked by the Amazons, directly playing into the trope that bad blood turns one bad. Bad blood trumps love.

Yeah, I didn’t see that at all.

First, I’m not convinced that story is true regarding the Amazons attacking first.

Second, Helena isn’t acting this way because of bad blood. She feels she’s been legitimately manipulated and betrayed.

I think you are misreading what the themyskira tumblr was saying. It isn't saying that Orlando is propping up white supremacists, but that "Orlando is unwittingly aping neo-Nazi propaganda".

Aping, heh.

At any rate, the story is very clear that these neo-fascists are not good people, no matter what ARGUS May have done.

If this was Rucka, or Simone, or Wilson, or Tynion doing this plot point I wouldn't be worried, because those are all ideologically aware people. Orlando has rather shown the opposite so far, and might very well be acting as a useful idiot for white supremacists. It's not smelling yet, but I can imagine the smell coming later on. No matter what, it doesn't heighten my thoughts on Orlando's judgment.

Not sure how many white supermacists read Wonder Woman. But theories to match facts, rather than looking for facts to support theories.

God, I hope not, that story was abysmal. Though given Orlando, I wouldn't be surprised. If he brings it back up.

You seem to have a universally low opinion of Orlando, which is strangely refreshing. The dislike for GWWs run has been so widespread it’s been a while since there was any real disagreement.

Personally I love his writing so far. Love it. And while the Amazon mini was only IMO okay, considering Orlando’s ability to spin a tale he could well turn it into something more meaningful

[kjn]

You seem to have a universally low opinion of Orlando, which is strangely refreshing. The dislike for GWWs run has been so widespread it’s been a while since there was any real disagreement.

Personally I love his writing so far. Love it. And while the Amazon mini was only IMO okay, considering Orlando’s ability to spin a tale he could well turn it into something more meaningful

That's because my attempts to argue for the strengths of Wilson's writings and themes, and to discuss them, ran into a cesspool of negativity here, and a clear tendency to assume the worst of her future plot points.

As for Orlando, he is a decent writer with a knack for engaging plots, and he certainly knows and appreciates the character and her history. But to me he is fundamentally unsuited to Wonder Woman (unless he gets a lot of handholding, editing, guidance, or feedback) because he has proven to consistently bring in themes or memes that are racist or misogynistic in nature.

[brettc1]

That's because my attempts to argue for the strengths of Wilson's writings and themes, and to discuss them, ran into a cesspool of negativity here, and a clear tendency to assume the worst of her future plot points.

As for Orlando, he is a decent writer with a knack for engaging plots, and he certainly knows and appreciates the character and her history. But to me he is fundamentally unsuited to Wonder Woman (unless he gets a lot of handholding, editing, guidance, or feedback) because he has proven to consistently bring in themes or memes that are racist or misogynistic in nature.

I guess there is an argument one could make that GWW is less racist and misogynistic because she consistently had Wonder Woman upstaged in her own book by non-white secondary female characters.

Not much of one though, IMO.

What you describe as a cesspool of negativity I would call an widespread awareness of glaring deficits.

[Pinsir]

That's because my attempts to argue for the strengths of Wilson's writings and themes, and to discuss them, ran into a cesspool of negativity here, and a clear tendency to assume the worst of her future plot points.

As for Orlando, he is a decent writer with a knack for engaging plots, and he certainly knows and appreciates the character and her history. But to me he is fundamentally unsuited to Wonder Woman (unless he gets a lot of handholding, editing, guidance, or feedback) because he has proven to consistently bring in themes or memes that are racist or misogynistic in nature.

I assume you are talking about Empress Hippolyta, right? What 'memes' does he use though?

Also just to add about this Norse mythology thing, there is no indication here that Gundra is actually a real Valkyrie. She could just be a Nazi superhero. This was my initial reading of the book. I didn't get the idea that Asgard had allied with Germany during WWII.

[Vordan]

This was good, I enjoyed it. I liked the conflict between Steve and Diana, it’s basically what I’ve always wanted added to their relationship. Steve’s job as a spy and Diana’s mission of peace could clash in an organic way and I’m pleased Orlando seems to want to explore that.

[brettc1]

I assume you are talking about Empress Hippolyta, right? What 'memes' does he use though?

Also just to add about this Norse mythology thing, there is no indication here that Gundra is actually a real Valkyrie. She could just be a Nazi superhero. This was my initial reading of the book. I didn't get the idea that Asgard had allied with Germany during WWII.

Yeah, I don’t know where that idea is coming from.

Names take centuries to evolve. And why did this Valkyrie never return to Asgard?

This was good, I enjoyed it. I liked the conflict between Steve and Diana, it’s basically what I’ve always wanted added to their relationship. Steve’s job as a spy and Diana’s mission of peace could clash in an organic way and I’m pleased Orlando seems to want to explore that.

I liked that too. It harked back to some of their disagreements in the movie.

[kjn]

I assume you are talking about Empress Hippolyta, right? What 'memes' does he use though?

#54 and #55: Mighty Whitey; does nothing to attempt to fix the racist stereotypes of the Bana-Mighdall

#73: Abortion makes you evil; being a good woman is tied to motherhood

This annual: the valkyries gets associated with the Nazis (weakly so so far, but absolutely unneeded); bad blood trumps all

I also found this in and old thread:

After having read a lot of Orlando's work, I find that there are some glaring racial and gender issues, harmful pathologies being perpetuated, that he could correct if he were open, listening, and willing to be educated.

[brettc1]

#54 and #55: Mighty Whitey; does nothing to attempt to fix the racist stereotypes of the Bana-Mighdall

#73: Abortion makes you evil; being a good woman is tied to motherhood

This annual: the valkyries gets associated with the Nazis (weakly so so far, but absolutely unneeded); bad blood trumps all

I also found this in and old thread:

Still not buying the racism argument. Especially since... OMG, in this annual the racists are white!

And the Empress doesn’t be some evil because she remains childless. That’s looking the story through a very strange lens. Again... in this comic, Helena had a mother who was a terrorist. So clearly, being a mom doesn’t automatically make you good.

So basically Orlando’s wring on this very annual renders both thes points null and void.

[Manakel]

And the Empress doesn’t be some evil because she remains childless. That’s looking the story through a very strange lens.

Exactly. She isn't evil because she disregards her child. She disregards her child because she is evil, not the other way around.

[SiegePerilous02]

I guess there is an argument one could make that GWW is less racist and misogynistic because she consistently had Wonder Woman upstaged in her own book by non-white secondary female characters.

Not much of one though, IMO.

What you describe as a cesspool of negativity I would call an widespread awareness of glaring deficits.

I actually still think a lot of the criticisms for this run right out of the gate, before it could finds its feet, were a little over the top. See the discussion thread where people freaked out about Wilson taking away Diana's power of flight despite zero evidence. She then flew for the rest of the run. The first couple arcs were flawed but showed some promise.

That being said: now that we've reached the end of the run, and we see that things not only didn't improve but they got worse, I have to side with those that say Wilson's run was a low point overall. I think Orlando (warts and all) is so far better if for no other reason than he hasn't written Diana as a navel gazing, barely competent bore in her own book.

And I think Empress Hippolyta has less love in her heart and more questionable ambitions than regular Hippolyta in general, so her not being mother making her evil seems like a leap.

[brettc1]

I actually still think a lot of the criticisms for this run right out of the gate, before it could finds its feet, were a little over the top. See the discussion thread where people freaked out about Wilson taking away Diana's power of flight despite zero evidence. She then flew for the rest of the run. The first couple arcs were flawed but showed some promise.

That being said: now that we've reached the end of the run, and we see that things not only didn't improve but they got worse, I have to side with those that say Wilson's run was a low point overall. I think Orlando (warts and all) is so far better if for no other reason than he hasn't written Diana as a navel gazing, barely competent bore in her own book.

And I think Empress Hippolyta has less love in her heart and more questionable ambitions than regular Hippolyta in general, so her not being mother making her evil seems like a leap.

I'd be interested to know how much if Empress Hippolyta was Orlando and how much came from GWWs outline for the plot.