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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAHX View Post
    Then you're not going to like ANW or his relationship with Laura in general, because Marvel went with the opposite dirction and they considere each other family.
    I know that Daken has many problematic and suggestive writing regarding this, but I don't think he's canonically considered a rapist or that Marvel will ever address this problem with him.
    -Partly because Marvel is blind to the problem imo.
    -But mostly because back in older comics the writers did and were allowed to do anything in order to make him dark, edgy and digusting, because the character was never intended to be developed or liked. The intention was only to make him as repulsive as possible in contrast of other characters and for the readers too, the creator pretty much admitted this. – this is where his pheromon powers to mess with people or him using his bisexuality only to manipulate everyone is coming from. So basically they could do anything with him and get away with it back then, which wouldn't be accepted or possible today. This itself is a problem on Marvel's side not the character's.

    But where it gets really problematic and questionable is when in order to acieve this super edgy writing they also used a discriminative way, making the character half Japanese and did things like naming him 'mongrel' (which pretty much racist), made him bisexual only because it was viewed (and portrayed) as something obnoxious as it was used only for evil goals, and when they combined these things with other questionable things Daken was doing. And maybe then Marvel didn't care about representation or if it looked bad to use minorities like this, but it is still pretty much racist and homophobic up to this day. Daken is still far from not not having problematic writing as we all know(they still use the depraved bisexual trope), but some of his actions and this rapey aspect is toned down now for example. And since nowadays this kind of approach they did with him is unaccepable, I really doubt that they will ever continue that old edgy writing or address certain aspects of the character in the future, and doubt he will be written with this in mind that he is a rapist. (although I doubt too that the questionable side of his pheromon powers won't be used again, as I said Marvel seems to be blind to the problem)

    I think if they ever want to fix or redeem the character, then first of all they should be more respectful and considerate of the way they treat a poc and bi character, and I think continuing/referencing the mistakes they did and not letting the character move into a better direction because of it, wouldn't be the solution.

    There was an instance when a thief girl from the streets literally offered to stay with him, and he yelled to go the hell away, so interacting with teenage girls shouldn't be a problem. And yes, it was Romulus' teaching to use his phereomon powers for manipulation, but he is also pretty much ignored these days.
    I see your point but I don't agree with it. Daken was at his worst personality wise under Marjorie Liu which is also when he was the most interesting and received most focus from Marvel with his own ongoings and a spot on Marvel's flagship book at the time.

    It boils down to creators interest for me. I dont think Marcel or the writers on Marvels payroll care abt Wolverine's bi asian son bc they just don't care abt bi and or asian characters. Marjorie Liu cared. She wrote a very unique and subversive tale for a Marvel book. Daken was a scheming two faced bi asian but he subverted the stereotypes by being the hero of his own twisted story. You can tell she put a lot of herself in that series. In contrast susbsequent writers discarded the parts of him that felt inconvenient to them and we ended with a string of lackluster appearances. He dont need to be fixed or redeemed, just needs a writer who will embrace all sides of his character and be willing to further his story which has been going nowhere this past decade.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    I've been saying Shionbi and Daken need to meet up for years. Now add Christian Frost and we have very interesting new Hellfire Club.
    if you threw in Sinister, it would certainly be the campiest of Lords Cardinal we've seen to date.


    Nathaniel Essex
    Astrid Bloom
    Marius St.Croix

    Christian Frost
    Shinobi Shaw
    Daken Akihiro
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 11-04-2019 at 11:06 AM.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    if you threw in Sinister, it would certainly be the campiest of Lords Cardinal we've seen to date.


    Nathaniel Essex
    Astrid Bloom
    Marius St.Croix

    Christian Frost
    Shinobi Shaw
    Daken Akihiro
    I want this.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    I see your point but I don't agree with it. Daken was at his worst personality wise under Marjorie Liu which is also when he was the most interesting and received most focus from Marvel with his own ongoings and a spot on Marvel's flagship book at the time.

    It boils down to creators interest for me. I dont think Marcel or the writers on Marvels payroll care abt Wolverine's bi asian son bc they just don't care abt bi and or asian characters. Marjorie Liu cared. She wrote a very unique and subversive tale for a Marvel book. Daken was a scheming two faced bi asian but he subverted the stereotypes by being the hero of his own twisted story. You can tell she put a lot of herself in that series. In contrast susbsequent writers discarded the parts of him that felt inconvenient to them and we ended with a string of lackluster appearances. He dont need to be fixed or redeemed, just needs a writer who will embrace all sides of his character and be willing to further his story which has been going nowhere this past decade.

    I feel like we talk about different things and there's some misunderstandings. I wasn't talking about Liu, she was just one of his writers, and if you've seen my previous posts, I agreed with you that Liu was the only one who made him interesting until recently. And I also agree with everything you just said now regarding her because I loved that writing you just described. But what I was talking about was more of a general probelm regarding the treatment of minority characters and about Daken's creation which leads back to Daniel Way, not Liu, so the criticism goes to him mostly.
    I don't understand what you disagree with exactly, because what I said was 90% description of what happened and what the writers said that happened, not my opinion.

    He doesn't need to be redeemed, but he does need to be fixed on certain parts. You can write a villain character who happens to be bisexual, without villanizing bisexuality or using the harmful bi stereotypes. It's just matter of balance, which writers didn't really care about. The problem was never that Daken was a villain. Just imagine the outrage if Marvel today created a bisexual character with pheromon powers who messes with everyone. It doesn't make it right that it happened a decade ago, and he shouldn't be written like that just because he once was. You can still have a Liu-like Machiavellian villain today too who manipulates everyone to get what he wants, but it can be done without making his sexuality problematic. I agree that he needs a writer who cares to further his story which has been going nowhere this past decade, but I don't think the missteps and problematic writing should be continued. And just to be clear, this Machiavellian Daken is one of my favorite Daken portrayals.

    Back to Liu, she is the best that happened to Daken, and yes, she cared. The problem is, she was the only one who cared and that she was just a co writer(probably didn't get full freedom) Before and after her, Daken was used to fit the writers narratives without adding to the character anything meaningful, and with destroying some characterization along the way. Exactly what you said: „In contrast susbsequent writers discarded the parts of him that felt inconvenient to them and we ended with a string of lackluster appearances.”

    But Liu's writing was only a very short period in the history of Daken, and every period is hugely different from each others. Befor Liu, there was Way who just wanted a really dark addition to Logan's past(Origins). And then suddenly this dark Daken was used as a fun villain trolling everyone in Dark Avengers which was already very different from Way's Daken. Then Liu came and gave an empty character personality and made him an intelligent villain. But after her Daken was just used for failure and for daddy issues. Anyone who read that Daken only and not Liu's, sees him as a loser and doesn't understand why others think that he is highly intelligent. And then in very recent years none of these was really continued and he was somewhat written anti-heroish. We'll see what happens next, but what I'm saying here is that there are many different versions of Daken and Liu's hasn't been followed sadly, and I guess it's not going to be.

  5. #65
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    My ideal Daken story would be him emphasizing his intelligence and how he is different from Wolverine while still having some of the pet the dog moments he has with Laura and Gabby. Get away from the ''evil bisexual' tropes, maybe have him try to have an actual relationship. A couple moments in the Liu run always stuck out to me:

    When the FBI woman arrives in an attack chopper, and Daken briefly remarks that 'no one ever comes back for me' before she opens fire on both Daken and the guy he's fighting

    And near the end of his series, when he tries in a super fucked up way to ask the FBI woman to be with him. At one point he even says he could change, but she shoots him down hard.

    Any story that seriously went into his life would probably have to deal with Romulus. Other people here are right, in that Romulus is a total mess and is just one terrible story idea and half-hearted stupid retcon after another, but he's too tied to Daken to ignore. Maybe have Daken realize just how much Romulus fucked him up and how a lot of his daddy issues and self destructive tendencies were instilled in him by design to make Logan miserable by proxy. He strikes me as the type that smart enough to realize he has serious problems but isn't capable of solving them as easily. I know several people like that, who realize they have depression or PTSD, etc. but just aren't capable of handling it on their own.

    And I don't need him to be a hero, or even a straight antihero. I'm just tired of the wannabe bad boy with daddy issues that gets clowned by the X-men or killed by Logan over and over again. He could try to become a yakuza boss or something and I'd be fore it.

  6. #66
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    I should have been clearer my bad. I disagree that Marvel nowadays wouldnt write dark or adult stories around stuff like r*pe. Im paraphrasing bc Im tired. I dont think theyre playing it safe as much as theyre uninterested in character like Daken, hence the emphasis on Liu in my post bc she was the only one to care for thecharacter, evidence that we need more diversity in creative positions.

    FBI girl was from Rob Williams run which I hated. Highlights from Liu's run was the whole issue Daken spent flirting with Mystique, to this day the sexiest comic book issue ever published. And the flirting with Gambit tho that was much short lived.

    Evil bisexuals have feelings too and deserve representation.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Can we all agree that Winter's End was a terrible use of the character in pretty much every way?

    My mistake on who wrote that run. I read pretty much all of Dark Wolverine in one burst and didn't pay enough attention to the writer changes.

  8. #68
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    I didnt read Iceman 2nd series, I hated HATED what was done with Daken in vol.1. Idc abt "baww theyre just paired up bc theyre gay" but theres not a chance in a million years that Daken would ever give balding head Bobby the time of the day.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    I didnt read Iceman 2nd series, I hated HATED what was done with Daken in vol.1. Idc abt "baww theyre just paired up bc theyre gay" but theres not a chance in a million years that Daken would ever give balding head Bobby the time of the day.
    The Winter's End one shot had a bad future (original!) where Daken joined the X-men and was in a relationship with Bobby, only for it to be a long con about him getting the M'Kran crystal and take over the Universe. When he 'betrays' Bobby, he blows up a spaceship with Laura on it, then makes out with an alien woman in front of Bobby before literally stabbing her in the back.

  10. #70
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    I should have been clearer my bad. I disagree that Marvel nowadays wouldnt write dark or adult stories around stuff like r*pe. Im paraphrasing bc Im tired. I dont think theyre playing it safe as much as theyre uninterested in character like Daken, hence the emphasis on Liu in my post bc she was the only one to care for thecharacter, evidence that we need more diversity in creative positions.

    FBI girl was from Rob Williams run which I hated. Highlights from Liu's run was the whole issue Daken spent flirting with Mystique, to this day the sexiest comic book issue ever published. And the flirting with Gambit tho that was much short lived.

    Evil bisexuals have feelings too and deserve representation.
    Ah, I get you now. And I agree with the last sentence. I wouldn't mind evil Daken with feelings, just want them to be more considerate about how they use bisexuality and don't use it as a means of evilness. For example I like Mystique & Destiny pairing, both evil, but evil together.


    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Can we all agree that Winter's End was a terrible use of the character in pretty much every way?
    Very much so

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    The Winter's End one shot had a bad future (original!) where Daken joined the X-men and was in a relationship with Bobby, only for it to be a long con about him getting the M'Kran crystal and take over the Universe. When he 'betrays' Bobby, he blows up a spaceship with Laura on it, then makes out with an alien woman in front of Bobby before literally stabbing her in the back.
    That sounds better then Id expect from that book. Does Daken win?

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    The Winter's End one shot had a bad future (original!) where Daken joined the X-men and was in a relationship with Bobby, only for it to be a long con about him getting the M'Kran crystal and take over the Universe. When he 'betrays' Bobby, he blows up a spaceship with Laura on it, then makes out with an alien woman in front of Bobby before literally stabbing her in the back.
    LMAO! Damn. Talk about making a parody of a character & combining all of their worst traits. lol

    Daken falls prey to the same thing as Sabretooth. Most writers don't have good ideas for them, nor are they interested in thinking of any. They both have a writer here & there every few years who will genuinely add something to them, but then the next 2+ writers make sure to ignore that & drag them back to villain parody so they can have a convenient scapegoat. And some writers are so lacking in imagination, the only way to show them as evil is to have them doing the most disgusting things for shock value -rape, cannibalism, etc. Liu was a terrible writer for Sabretooth when she had him needlessly included in her X-run to show him keeping kittens for a snack. Or Higgins writing him as an obsessed ex of Logan dressing other men up like him & killing them.

    BUT at least Daken still has hope. He's gonna be in Percy's Wolverine solo\ and Laura will be in the Wolverine book as well, so he may have some good stories ahead. I am more of a Creed fan myself, but I finally admitted defeat, made peace, & accepted a month ago it's too late for him. lol

    At least Daken hasn't gotten that bad.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 11-04-2019 at 04:18 PM.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I personally prefer Daken to be on the bad side of morally grey, more complex than how some writers have him. Like he's definitely manipulative and would backstab anybody, but the reasons why he does it is because his experiences taught him that's how the world works. He should have humanity at times like his relationship with Laura and Gabby. Having him be this completely irredeemable monster is lazy and a waste when you can have him be deeper than that.

    Also, the sexual tension between him and Johnny>>>>>>>>>the bore-fest of him and Bobby.

    I didn't believe that future with him and Bobby for one second.
    Be sure to check out the Invisible Woman appreciation thread!

  14. #74
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    LMAO! Damn. Talk about making a parody of a character & combining all of their worst traits. lol

    Daken falls prey to the same thing as Sabretooth. Most writers don't have good ideas for them, nor are they interested in thinking of any. They both have a writer here & there every few years who will genuinely add something to them, but then the next 2+ writers make sure to ignore that & drag them back to villain parody so they can have a convenient scapegoat. And some writers are so lacking in imagination, the only way to show them as evil is to have them doing the most disgusting things for shock value -rape, cannibalism, etc. Liu was a terrible writer for Sabretooth when she had him needlessly included in her X-run to show him keeping kittens for a snack. Or Higgins writing him as an obsessed ex of Logan dressing other men up like him & killing them.

    BUT at least Daken still has hope. He's gonna be in Percy's Wolverine solo\ and Laura will be in the Wolverine book as well, so he may have some good stories ahead. I am more of a Creed fan myself, but I finally admitted defeat, made peace, & accepted a month ago it's too late for him. lol

    At least Daken hasn't gotten that bad.
    Yeah, pretty much this... I have hopes for some new Daken stories with all these changes happening, but I'm afraid he will be back to being a scapegoat as you said at some point. Villainous characters don't often get good developments and often used as a plot for heroes.

    Daken seems to have a promising thing coming with the Wolverines solo for now, but he did have his share of bad treatment. Like how many times did he get killed for Logan? Four? It's a joke.

    I'm sure Creed will be back from his 'prison' and when he gets out, there will be mayhem



    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Also, the sexual tension between him and Johnny>>>>>>>>>the bore-fest of him and Bobby.
    You get it!
    Last edited by DAHX; 11-04-2019 at 04:54 PM.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAHX View Post
    Yeah, pretty much this... I have hopes for some new Daken stories with all these changes happening, but I'm afraid he will be back to being a scapegoat as you said at some point. Villainous characters don't often get good developments and often used as a plot for heroes.
    Agreed. And some wonder why some of us want villains to become good. Because it's the only way they get allowed anything. With the exception of Mystique, who's more bland & one-note than Daken & Creed ever were, yet she's constantly thrown in our faces.

    Daken seems to have a promising things coming with the Wolverines solo for now, but he did have his share of bad treatment. Like how many times did he get killed for Logan? Four? It's a joke.
    Trust me, Creed's had worse & WAAAAAY more shameful. lol

    I agree Daken has had a bad run. But I don't think he's doomed just yet. Creed is an example of doomed & never expect anything again. lol Especially when his "arc" and reason for being in a New-Era set-up was to act as a scapegoated punching-bag .

    I'm sure Creed will be back from his 'prison' and when he gets out, there will be mayhem
    Everyone & there sister has easily manhandled him at this point. They'll only bring him back when they want someone for a hero / heroine to beat up.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 11-04-2019 at 05:30 PM.

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