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  1. #76
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Agreed. And some wonder why some of us want villains to become good. Because it's the only way they get allowed anything. With the exception of Mystique, who's more bland & one-note than Daken & Creed ever were, yet she's constantly thrown in our faces.
    And it shouldn't be like that. Villains should get development too to be interesting. And if their only chance for getting development is to become temporarily good, that's bad writing.

    Trust me, Creed's had worse & WAAAAAY more shameful. lol
    I agree Daken has had a bad run. But I don't think he's doomed just yet. Creed is an example of doomed & never expect anything again. lol Especially when his "arc" and reason for being in a New-Era set-up was to act as a scapegoated punching-bag.

    Everyone & there sister has easily manhandled him at this point. They'll only bring him back when they want someone for a hero / heroine to beat up.

    The problem with Daken and Creed is that they just can't escape from their fate of being Logan's throw away plot devices. They desperately need stories of their own too that has nothing to do with Logan imo.

    I pretty much thought Daken was doomed when Logan came back to life: he was immediately killed in a side book where Logan came back, he was reset back to his daddy issues after he had moved on from them when Logan died. And then we didn't hear anything about him for months. The only thing that gave me hope in the last few weeks is that he had this little cameo with showing up on Krakoa, and being mentioned in the Wolverine interview. But we still don't know what that means for him, and even if it's good, that doesn't mean it will last.

    I wouldn't give up on Creed just yet. I know it looks bad right now, but I don't think it's exactly what it looks like. Getting imprisoned and exiled indicates that his story will continue, we must learn at some point what really happened to him, it's one of the mysterys on Krakoa right now(for the readers). And I believe he will be one of the villains who will cause headache for the heroes later. I expect something from Sinister, as we already know that he betrayed the X-Men in the 9th life, Mystique will be a problem because of Destiny, and Creed because of the imprisonment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Rank SSS+ Portrayals: Marjorie Liu, Charles Soule

    Good Portrayals: Tom Taylor, Cullen Bunn, BMB

    ...okay Portrayals: Mariko Tamaki, Sina Grace, Daniel Way

    Get away from him! Get a job! Portrayals: Rick Remender, Jason Aaron

    anyways i think daken and briar raleigh should have a fwb-type relationship

    Ranking:
    for me 'Get away from him! Get a job' category includes Grace, Soule and Way too in addition to Rick Remender, Jason Aaron. ( I did like some of their arcs, but I wouldn't want them to write Daken again, so they're all in this category) I can't forgive Grace that in an LGBT series with a lead gay character he used the bisexual character as a desposable villain plot and played out the manipulative bisexual trope.... (Winter's End) It happened way too many times with straight writers, but Grace who is part of the community should've known better.
    Soule gave Daken development in Logan Legacy/Wolverines, and threw that all away so he can have Logan killing Daken again in Return of Wolverine to make a reference to Remender's run... It was cheap and annoying. Although it occurred to me that maybe Daken needed to be dead for Hickman's run. But I don't like how he writes Logan either, so I prefer him not writing Wolverine comics. Without Hunt for Wolverine and Return of Wolverine he would be in the 'Ok' category as I kind of liked his Daken in Logan Legacy and Wolverines.
    -SSS+ Portrayals: Marjorie Liu is definitely the best, the only one who made the effort to develop the character. I'm adding Taylor here too - not because this is exactly how I want to see Daken all the time, but he provided something fun and not destructive for Daken, it was a breath of fresh air and was good for an arc. Also I just love Laura/Daken team-ups.
    -Good portrayal: Bunn didn't wrote him much, but I liked how he payed attention to details. Giving katanas to an actual Japanese character? Thank you sir.
    -Ok portayal: Mariko Tamaki was kind of fun with Daken's stupid jokes.


    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Ugh, X-men Blue was such a waste. Form a team, then have them do nothing important. Daken had like 2 lines with Jimmy, his weird alt-universe brother. Then Jimmy got absorbed by an alien parasite.

    X-Men Blue was very meh for Daken, but I'm always gonna be grateful for giving him this X-Men uniform


  2. #77
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    That sounds better then Id expect from that book. Does Daken win?
    No, bad future Bobby goes back in time (again, super original here) to warn/kill present Bobby to prevent this from happening. At this time Daken is so far removed from even interacting with Bobby, Bobby is more confused than anything. Its super dumb.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    tumblr_p1jmqte5lM1vqknjlo1_400.jpg

    This is that picture I mentioned earlier. It was stupid hard to find. Daken and Laura have TONS of fanart.

  4. #79
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    tumblr_p1jmqte5lM1vqknjlo1_400.jpg

    This is that picture I mentioned earlier. It was stupid hard to find. Daken and Laura have TONS of fanart.
    My favorite sniktfam fanart

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    My ideal Daken story would be him emphasizing his intelligence and how he is different from Wolverine while still having some of the pet the dog moments he has with Laura and Gabby. Get away from the ''evil bisexual' tropes, maybe have him try to have an actual relationship. A couple moments in the Liu run always stuck out to me:

    When the FBI woman arrives in an attack chopper, and Daken briefly remarks that 'no one ever comes back for me' before she opens fire on both Daken and the guy he's fighting

    And near the end of his series, when he tries in a super fucked up way to ask the FBI woman to be with him. At one point he even says he could change, but she shoots him down hard.

    Any story that seriously went into his life would probably have to deal with Romulus. Other people here are right, in that Romulus is a total mess and is just one terrible story idea and half-hearted stupid retcon after another, but he's too tied to Daken to ignore.

    Maybe have Daken realize just how much Romulus fucked him up and how a lot of his daddy issues and self destructive tendencies were instilled in him by design to make Logan miserable by proxy. He strikes me as the type that smart enough to realize he has serious problems but isn't capable of solving them as easily. I know several people like that, who realize they have depression or PTSD, etc. but just aren't capable of handling it on their own.

    And I don't need him to be a hero, or even a straight antihero. I'm just tired of the wannabe bad boy with daddy issues that gets clowned by the X-men or killed by Logan over and over again. He could try to become a yakuza boss or something and I'd be fore it.
    The bold part exactly. Whatever path they will give him, just no more daddy issues, uh….

    What I always missed the most is exploring his past. We still know almost nothing about him, we were just told that he has a traumatized past, but didn’t really see it. But since Romulus is a mess character whose existence is ignored, I wouldn’t mind if Daken got a new back story, told better and in more details than what we have now. But his upbringing needs to stay essentially the same in regards of his trainings and the traumas he had to endure – the reason why he is the way he is today.

    I like how you perceive Daken and his problems. One of the things that fascinated me the most was how he dealt with them (well, more like the lack of it). While Laura tried to find herself and get better, Daken basically refused to see and admit that he had serious problems and how much fucked up he was because of Romulus. I especially see this denial when he said things like „I am brilliant and beautiful. Anything I want on this earth I can take and no one can stop me”, but in reality whatever he started, he failed miserably. He was unable to let go Logan and not have an influenced on him. Whatever he did was done with Logan in mind, like taking over Madripoor. Even the last boss Daken killed told him that he was just copying his father and he couldn’t come up with one original idea on his own. That whole story arc was about how he wanted control in his life and to build something, but all he did was just a mess and destruction.

    I also see Daken as someone who can realize but can’t handle his problems on his own which leads to his his self-destructive tendencies. I really want to see diving into his past and problems, and want him to face his traumas and struggling with them, and realize that no amount of lies will make him stable. He started to understand this at the very end of his solo, I wish they had put more effort into continuing that instead of enlarging his daddy issues in Uncanny X-Force and just kill him. :/

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    tumblr_p1jmqte5lM1vqknjlo1_400.jpg

    This is that picture I mentioned earlier. It was stupid hard to find. Daken and Laura have TONS of fanart.
    I love this, thanks for posting
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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAHX View Post
    And it shouldn't be like that. Villains should get development too to be interesting. And if their only chance for getting development is to become temporarily good, that's bad writing.
    Believe me, I agree. But sadly, we're in an age now where good villains with depth seem hard to come by and writers have all their effort for making heroes look good.

    The problem with Daken and Creed is that they just can't escape from their fate of being Logan's throw away plot devices. They desperately need stories of their own too that has nothing to do with Logan imo.
    Preaching to the Choir. I have said that repeatedly whenever I complained about Creed. In the 90's and early 2000's, he had a good amount of focus that had nothing to do with Logan. Chuck Austen came in, ruined the character to pieces, and now Logan's jobbing accessory is all he's functioned as.

    We see it again with Ruins of Ravencroft. It's a series of one-shots, one of which is entitled "Sabretooth", but this is the cover we got..
    Ruins_of_Ravencroft_Sabretooth_Vol_1_1.jpg
    This is as low as it gets where your (supposedly) story is advertising your nemesis over you. Again, this is how far the Creed character has fallen. I was excited to hear about the book since Tieri was writing, but when the cover was finally shown, that killed it.

    Also, Daken does have Laura. A positive, consistent relationship with someone who loves him. That's a good thing and I can see why any Daken fan would enjoy seeing that because it shows a better side to him. It's good when villains can have those genuine connections with someone their mutually love. Again, it doesn't make them good, it just makes them more human & adds some depth. Meanwhile, Creed is only ever with Mystique as her disposable servant.

    I pretty much thought Daken was doomed when Logan came back to life: he was immediately killed in a side book where Logan came back, he was reset back to his daddy issues after he had moved on from them when Logan died. And then we didn't hear anything about him for months. The only thing that gave me hope in the last few weeks is that he had this little cameo with showing up on Krakoa, and being mentioned in the Wolverine interview. But we still don't know what that means for him, and even if it's good, that doesn't mean it will last.
    Trust me, I understand being wary -especially with the constant up & down track record. This is Daken's thread, so I am not trying to derail. But I bring up Sabretooth to show what it's like when a character becomes hopeless.

    Both were in a rough boat with similar issues. But metaphorically speaking, Daken can have some patch work coming on his to keep him afloat. Creed's ship already sank. Some patched it up and set him sailing, but the ship was attacked again with even more force & destruction in the last 6 months. lol Completing the sink. Only thing left is to fish up his dead body and slap it around for a bit.

    When Daken starts showing some of Creed's symptoms, he'll be doomed. But he's still afloat for now. He is a character I wouldn't jump ship on yet. Especially with him & Laura coming again soon. Deadpool is my Daken. His character is up & down heavily, but he has had lots of good stories in recent years with some bad. So he's still a fav. that I see as 50/50 on which version we get.

    I wouldn't give up on Creed just yet. I know it looks bad right now, but I don't think it's exactly what it looks like. Getting imprisoned and exiled indicates that his story will continue, we must learn at some point what really happened to him, it's one of the mysterys on Krakoa right now(for the readers). And I believe he will be one of the villains who will cause headache for the heroes later. I expect something from Sinister, as we already know that he betrayed the X-Men in the 9th life, Mystique will be a problem because of Destiny, and Creed because of the imprisonment.
    Appreciate the kind words, and a nice back & forth convo. But sadly, I have no more optimism for Creed. 2017 - present has completely broken me. Before HOX came out, I asked JDW in a direct message here about Creed & his less than stellar treatment. His response was basically telling me not to expect much. And given what we saw in HOX, he was right. lol

    It's gotten so bad, I had to leave the sinking ship & swim to shore. At this point, despite him being my favorite character at one point, I don't even like him now, because I never liked one-note joke villains.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 11-05-2019 at 11:30 PM.

  7. #82
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    A basic Google image search gave me SO MUCH amazing Daken fanart I didn't know existed. My favorite are the ones where he's a little kid dragged around by an exasperated Logan.

    By all means talk about Creed. Its hard not too because he's pretty similar to Daken and they interact a lot. He's much less integral than Romulus, but Romulus is....oof. We're going to have to talk about Romulus, aren't we?

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    A basic Google image search gave me SO MUCH amazing Daken fanart I didn't know existed. My favorite are the ones where he's a little kid dragged around by an exasperated Logan.

    By all means talk about Creed. Its hard not too because he's pretty similar to Daken and they interact a lot. He's much less integral than Romulus, but Romulus is....oof. We're going to have to talk about Romulus, aren't we?
    I try to pretend Romulous doesn't exist. lol But not just him. Anything Loeb did, I try to ignore. Especially the mess about Wolverine & Creed coming from wolves.

  9. #84

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    i would happily welcome Romulus being retconned away. they could easily substitute in any of Logan's other rogues; The Hand even.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    i would happily welcome Romulus being retconned away. they could easily substitute in any of Logan's other rogues; The Hand even.
    Or even Persephone. She's a newer villain you could add some stuff to. But yeah, Romulous needs to go. It's easier to pronounce it filler since I don't think he's come up since Loeb.

  11. #86
    Amazing Member Dark Gulo's Avatar
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    I loved Taylors run with Laura although her heroic speeches could be a bit verbose at times it was never too much. Taylor really understood Larua as a character as well as alot of the wolverine mythos as a whole. The familial interactions with Daken ,Gabby and Laura were very good as well

  12. #87
    Amazing Member Dark Gulo's Avatar
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    Yeah i never truly hated romulus but i will admit he didnt really leave much of an impression, i felt all in all ambivalent towards the guy. He served his purpose

  13. #88
    Amazing Member Dark Gulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    A basic Google image search gave me SO MUCH amazing Daken fanart I didn't know existed. My favorite are the ones where he's a little kid dragged around by an exasperated Logan.

    By all means talk about Creed. Its hard not too because he's pretty similar to Daken and they interact a lot. He's much less integral than Romulus, but Romulus is....oof. We're going to have to talk about Romulus, aren't we?
    I though Daken and Creed only interacted twice, in Xforce and the not so good return of wolverine tie-in

  14. #89
    Amazing Member Dark Gulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Believe me, I agree. But sadly, we're in an age now where good villains with depth seem hard to come by and writers have all their effort for making heroes look good.


    Preaching to the Choir. I have said that repeatedly whenever I complained about Creed. In the 90's and early 2000's, he had a good amount of focus that had nothing to do with Logan. Chuck Austen came in, ruined the character to pieces, and now Logan's jobbing accessory is all he's functioned as.

    We see it again with Ruins of Ravencroft. It's a series of one-shots, one of which is entitled "Sabretooth", but this is the cover we got..
    Ruins_of_Ravencroft_Sabretooth_Vol_1_1.jpg
    This is as low as it gets where your (supposedly) story is advertising your nemesis over you. Again, this is how far the Creed character has fallen. I was excited to hear about the book since Tieri was writing, but when the cover was finally shown, that killed it.

    Also, Daken does have Laura. A positive, consistent relationship with someone who loves him. That's a good thing and I can see why any Daken fan would enjoy seeing that because it shows a better side to him. It's good when villains can have those genuine connections with someone their mutually love. Again, it doesn't make them good, it just makes them more human & adds some depth. Meanwhile, Creed is only ever with Mystique as her disposable servant.


    Trust me, I understand being wary -especially with the constant up & down track record. This is Daken's thread, so I am not trying to derail. But I bring up Sabretooth to show what it's like when a character becomes hopeless.

    Both were in a rough boat with similar issues. But metaphorically speaking, Daken can have some patch work coming on his to keep him afloat. Creed's ship already sank. Some patched it up and set him sailing, but the ship was attacked again with even more force & destruction in the last 6 months. lol Completing the sink. Only thing left is to fish up his dead body and slap it around for a bit.

    When Daken starts showing some of Creed's symptoms, he'll be doomed. But he's still afloat for now. He is a character I wouldn't jump ship on yet. Especially with him & Laura coming again soon. Deadpool is my Daken. His character is up & down heavily, but he has had lots of good stories in recent years with some bad. So he's still a fav. that I see as 50/50 on which version we get.


    Appreciate the kind words, and a nice back & forth convo. But sadly, I have no more optimism for Creed. 2017 - present has completely broken me. Before HOX came out, I asked JDW in a direct message here about Creed & his less than stellar treatment. His response was basically telling me not to expect much. And given what we saw in HOX, he was right. lol

    It's gotten so bad, I had to leave the sinking ship & swim to shore. At this point, despite him being my favorite character at one point, I don't even like him now, because I never liked one-note joke villains.
    You are so spot on with this i felt the same way about creed too at first i found his powers and aesthetic cool and that was it he didnt have anything else, he was a rather boring character, then they inverted him an he grew to be a character i truly enjoyed following and became one of my favorites too,but then the red flags started presenting themselves and it all went down hill. As for Daken going forward i believe or at least im optimistic that Daken will get a more flattering portrayal in Wolvies new book Percy seemed pretty adamant about focusing on the importance of family with Logan and Daken as well as Laura( hopefully Gabbys there too). Hopefully this will cement Daken in a spot where other writers will have no choice but to display Daken as a nuanced person rather then a throwaway plot device to make wolverine feel sad for a few pages

  15. #90
    Incredible Member DAHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    i would happily welcome Romulus being retconned away. they could easily substitute in any of Logan's other rogues; The Hand even.
    Everyone sees Romulus as a bad and silly addition, especially to Logan. Even Marvel ignores it now, and if they just pretend that he never happened, that kind of makes Daken’s backstory non canon. They should just give him a new one then with replacing Romulus with someone else. The Hand is a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post

    Preaching to the Choir. I have said that repeatedly whenever I complained about Creed. In the 90's and early 2000's, he had a good amount of focus that had nothing to do with Logan. Chuck Austen came in, ruined the character to pieces, and now Logan's jobbing accessory is all he's functioned as.
    I remember Creed in the 90s, he’s got a good amount of stories outside of Logan. When the X-men was keeping him at the mansion he had many different character interactions while Logan was mostly out of the picture. That was interesting, and Creed was basically in one room all that time.

    Also, Daken does have Laura. A positive, consistent relationship with someone who loves him. That's a good thing and I can see why any Daken fan would enjoy seeing that because it shows a better side to him. It's good when villains can have those genuine connections with someone their mutually love. Again, it doesn't make them good, it just makes them more human & adds some depth. Meanwhile, Creed is only ever with Mystique as her disposable servant.
    Exactly this. I don’t think Daken is becoming good just because he has a good relationship with Laura, he even stated that he doesn’t agree with her methods. But this contrast is what makes them interesting and that despite their differences, they accept each other and can work well together. That’s why I wouldn’t mind the concept of Daken staying a bad guy, but making an exception with Laura, which would make him a more complex character.

    Trust me, I understand being wary -especially with the constant up & down track record. This is Daken's thread, so I am not trying to derail. But I bring up Sabretooth to show what it's like when a character becomes hopeless.

    Both were in a rough boat with similar issues. But metaphorically speaking, Daken can have some patch work coming on his to keep him afloat. Creed's ship already sank. Some patched it up and set him sailing, but the ship was attacked again with even more force & destruction in the last 6 months. lol Completing the sink. Only thing left is to fish up his dead body and slap it around for a bit.

    When Daken starts showing some of Creed's symptoms, he'll be doomed. But he's still afloat for now. He is a character I wouldn't jump ship on yet. Especially with him & Laura coming again soon. Deadpool is my Daken. His character is up & down heavily, but he has had lots of good stories in recent years with some bad. So he's still a fav. that I see as 50/50 on which version we get.
    Maybe. But I can only relax and believe he isn’t completely lost, if for example we’re over the Wolverine solo and Daken doesn’t die or betray anyone. That’s usually his recurring themes…. If these don’t happen, he might have a chance for some developments.

    Appreciate the kind words, and a nice back & forth convo. But sadly, I have no more optimism for Creed. 2017 - present has completely broken me. Before HOX came out, I asked JDW in a direct message here about Creed & his less than stellar treatment. His response was basically telling me not to expect much. And given what we saw in HOX, he was right. lol

    It's gotten so bad, I had to leave the sinking ship & swim to shore. At this point, despite him being my favorite character at one point, I don't even like him now, because I never liked one-note joke villains.
    I understand. I have other fav characters or shows/comics that I abandoned for the exact same reason. Sadly sometimes you have to let it go :/
    Well, I don’t know what JDW said, but maybe he wasn’t encouraging because he knew Creed’s imprisonment was coming. But that doesn’t mean he won’t get a follow up later, whenever it happens. I’d be surprised if we didn’t hear about him.

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