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  1. #1
    Baby Thanos Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    Default Things you were surprised Marvel allowed

    I just read the last issue of Silver Surfer Black and it seems they've allowed a significant change to the character's appearance. Considering how much money Marvel makes off of branding it often surprises me what some writers and artists are allowed to get away with.

    What are some character changes or story lines you guys were surprised Marvel permitted?
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  2. #2
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    Ms Marvel getting raped and the Avengers not batting an eye and Ms Marvel accepting it

  3. #3
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipHopAvenger View Post
    Ms Marvel getting raped and the Avengers not batting an eye and Ms Marvel accepting it
    Yeah, that's always gonna be a sour one for me. At least Ms. Marvel was under mind control at the time, so that explained her. The other Avengers . . . not so much. And that was supposed to be the milestone issue 200.

    Beyond that, I'm still surprised Marvel went ahead and let Hank Pym be portrayed as a wife-beater. Even if it was "the one time," it shows a huge lack of foresight on their end, especially given how much less sympathetic people generally view domestic abusers these days.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member
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    I think it was part of a drug PSA, but there was an arc in Power Pack where you see Julie tear open her legs attempting to kick a mutant with durable skin. Young me was legitimately shocked since kid protagonists in cartoons at the time and even now to an extent weren't exactly allowed to be shown bleeding, let lone have flesh torn open.

  5. #5
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    For me it was the radical change for the main Marvel players during the height of the MCU.

    Captain America: Steve -> Sam
    Thor: Odinson -> Jane
    Iron Man: Toni -> Riri
    Hulk: Bruce -> Amadeus
    Wasp: Jane -> Nadia

    I mean these were their core characters and they changed them! It wasn't like the X-Men where Disney tried to sink them on purpose and replace them with the Inhumans.

    Also another thing that I was really surprised they allowed was the combining and then eventual removal of the Ultimate Universe, I remember they swore up and down there would NEVER be a crossover with the 616; well look at it now.

  6. #6
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    How graphic the scene where Sentry ripped Ares in half was in Seige.

  7. #7
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    How graphic the scene where Sentry ripped Ares in half was in Seige.
    Yeah, you'd think you were reading a MAX comic.

    That said, Peter Parker nearly beating his clone Ben Reilly to death in a rage over the (faked) results of a test showing that Ben was the "real" Peter Parker all along and knocking a visibly pregnant Mary Jane a good distance away when she tried to stop him was something I was surprised Marvel allowed, too, along with Peter joining the Jackal and nearly becoming party to genocide of the human race out of nihilistic despair over being a clone. Oh, Peter and Mary Jane making a literal Faustian bargain to erase/undo their marriage in exchange for Aunt May's life after Peter revealing his identity during Civil War resulted in her being shot almost dead by the Kingpin's sniper trying to get at him was right up there, too. I mean, a literal deal with the (or a) devil to escape the consequences of his own actions (and "conveniently" --- for certain people, not the character himself --- get back to being swinging single), and fans of this character were expected to just swallow that?

    (Yes, I'm still bitter. I make no bones about it.)
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #8
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipHopAvenger View Post
    Ms Marvel getting raped and the Avengers not batting an eye and Ms Marvel accepting it
    Yeah, how the heck rape and arguably even incest made it into the freaking 200th issue I'll never know. Just all kinds of wrong going on there.

  9. #9
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    I just read Born Again for the first time, so pretty much that whole story lol. Though I don't how the comics code worked back then, so maybe it's less surprising than it should be.

  10. #10

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    There was a mutant that was a skeleton in pink goo with cartoony eyes. And he was being featured in many comics. Marvel should have an editor, someone who oversees what the artists are doing and say "Really? This? This is what you call a good character? Do it again, and do it fine this time!"

  11. #11
    Mighty Member
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    The amount of rape Purple Man gets away with. He has a small legion of kids as well as his older daughter Kara Killgrave. It's never addressed.

  12. #12
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, that's always gonna be a sour one for me. At least Ms. Marvel was under mind control at the time, so that explained her. The other Avengers . . . not so much. And that was supposed to be the milestone issue 200.

    Beyond that, I'm still surprised Marvel went ahead and let Hank Pym be portrayed as a wife-beater. Even if it was "the one time," it shows a huge lack of foresight on their end, especially given how much less sympathetic people generally view domestic abusers these days.
    I think that was mostly a case of a male writer (David Michelinie) and editor (Jim Shooter) being blind to how bad that idea was. It seems that from most accounts it was mostly Jim Shooter's story. Claremont had the guts to call it out later on in an issue of the X-Men. IIRC there was a long letter writer by a female reader in the Avengers letters page. You can read Carol Strickland's rather detailed blog about the travesty of it all here

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    How graphic the scene where Sentry ripped Ares in half was in Seige.
    Yeah, that was a fun scene.

    Also, Daken.

    Just freaking Daken.
    Quote Originally Posted by HipHopAvenger View Post
    Ms Marvel getting raped and the Avengers not batting an eye and Ms Marvel accepting it
    What creeps me out about that was just how afraid Carol was initially, but all of the other Avengers are just so damn cheerful and happy about the baby. It feels like a horror movie where poor Carol is just being driven insane and then, at the end, she is just happy to be marrying her son. The whole thing is just so unnerving.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, that's always gonna be a sour one for me. At least Ms. Marvel was under mind control at the time, so that explained her. The other Avengers . . . not so much. And that was supposed to be the milestone issue 200.

    Beyond that, I'm still surprised Marvel went ahead and let Hank Pym be portrayed as a wife-beater. Even if it was "the one time," it shows a huge lack of foresight on their end, especially given how much less sympathetic people generally view domestic abusers these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, how the heck rape and arguably even incest made it into the freaking 200th issue I'll never know. Just all kinds of wrong going on there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    What creeps me out about that was just how afraid Carol was initially, but all of the other Avengers are just so damn cheerful and happy about the baby. It feels like a horror movie where poor Carol is just being driven insane and then, at the end, she is just happy to be marrying her son. The whole thing is just so unnerving.
    From what I've gathered, the failure to address what had happened to Ms. Marvel for what it was in Avengers #200 (which didn't properly receive closure until a year later in Avengers Annual #10, at least I felt), is Jim Shooter, George Pérez, Bob Layton, David Michelinie, and the editors not properly communicating with each other and not helped by deadlines which practically encouraged not giving stories the lookovers they were due, which doesn't excuse such questionable material that gets by of course, but I'm sure is still a complexity that plays a factor in how responsible a book ended up being handled, and may show the failures of the Comics Code of Authority as well actually. I suppose adding another complexity to the situation is what the average comic book writer would have constituted as rape in 1980 vs. what the average comic book writer would have constituted as rape in modern times, but that's probably another conversation entirely. In any case, Jim Shooter apologized on his website for what it's worth, and I get the feeling the other credited writers would apologize as well. I haven't seen them do though. If anything else, I suppose the biggest lesson to be learned here is to always give material the lookovers they're due, deadlines and the like be damned, or else you may just end up with a big smelly egg on your face that will be hard to clean off.

    As for the "wife-beater" story, again, at least by Shooter's own account, it seems Hank was never intended to be as such. Apparently what was meant to happen is that the scene in which Hank accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration was supposed to have him making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross. And going back to deadlines, there was no time to have it redrawn, and the consequence of that is causing the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story to this day.

    Whatever the case, like with Avengers Annual #10, I feel that Avengers #227-230, while not forgetting the fact the event still happened, gives proper closure to the situation and more or less buried the hatchet on it:

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 10-31-2019 at 06:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Besides the two examples mentioned with Shooter's Avengers (yeah, probably not a coincidence), Hickman getting away with the Emma/Scott/Jean/Logan poly thing right now has been surprising. Of course, he also had the Avengers end with Captain America and Tony Stark murdering each other while the world burned, so...

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