Old Woman Laura discussion

[Snoop Dogg]

“I wish for more Glob Herman”?

I used it to wish for more explod-o girl content, and now I'm getting it coupled with Gambit's inevitable fanfic kids and the 1988 Blob. I didn't even mind the gooey bastard, but now he's in my way. Should I pray to Percy for salvation, or cut a deal with Mephisto?

[Ambaryerno]

Could just be that Tom Taylor was thinking it would make for a good story and it wasn't meant to be bleed over into anything else and fair enough that the ending implies that the problem will be cracked. I guess I'd just prefer the degeneration to be exclusive to that reality, although, as "spirit2011" pointed out, comic book time isn't going to let us get there or anything.




Thinking it over, the main thing people pointed to claim that Gabby was lesbian or bisexual was a bit in Taylor's X-Men Red # 2, where Gabby, on a mission that'll have Jean in telepathic connection with everyone, asks: "Oh, and I haven't fully explored those feelings for the girl on the bus [Trinary], so if you could just leave those alone, it would be appreciated." If that's all that's said on the subject, they could say it means anything they want (she could have a crush on her or just be hero worship).

There was no indication it was Trinary she was talking about. For one, I'm pretty sure that conversation took place before they even met her.

[WebLurker]

There was no indication it was Trinary she was talking about. For one, I'm pretty sure that conversation took place before they even met her.

Yes and no; double-checked my trade paperback when getting the quote, and literally three pages earlier, Gabby had seen Trianry's video message calling for help due to her Robin Hood side gig ("And, just like that, I have a new hero"). Fair enough though, that it doesn't quite look like Gabby saw her on a bus, but the characters are never shown riding a bus anywhere in the story, nor is there any other girl character Gabby was seen meeting before. Trinary seems to be the logical person Gabby was talking about, unless she was talking about something completely off camera.

[Coatl]

To be honest while I followed and enjoyed most of the run, I kind of disliked this last arc.

All seemed to utopic and irreal.

Laura being the "elected" queen of Madripoor? I mean no president, no minister, the all powerful Queen, why?

The healing factor of Gaby was insane, she just stood there with a big hole in the middle of her body while making jokes because of curse she didn't feel pain, but a wound that size should be enough to kill or at least knock down any other feral mutant. I like the healing factor when act like that, something that allows you to recover sooner from wounds, not a magical propriety who makes you unable to dead so removes all danger from the field.

Laura is dying because is a clone, perfect, that something that actually happens with clones tends to be sick and die before the donors, was sad and realistics just that Gaby the clone of the clone who should be even more vulnerable is perfectly healthy...what?

So Laura has know that Bellona has been missed for years and just cares now because she is about to die, well, that makes her a terrible sister, same for Gabby who barely remembers the person who protect her while growing up.

Laura goes to Latveria to kill Doom and rescue Bellona, ok, but I found her team very strange. Since when she is so friendly around Maria Hill and Hawkeye? if something the first one has history about not being reliable, and to be honest neither of them has very useful powers, they are going to take down Doom, pick up heavy hitters. Or at least people you have worked before, hasn't she a better relationship with Jubilee any X-men, Susan Strom, why not invite Gambit or Daken? Ok maybe they are dead, but still seems a bit like an "just girls allowed squad".

Doom is not a nice guy, but has been proven time and time again that he is the best ruler to Latveria and every time that he is removed for power the country suffers a lot. He isn't attacking anyone so, why the need to kill him? Why not just take Bellona and get away?

Also Doom looking for Laura body, like for real? he is a top magician and scientific, if he wants to be inmortal why not get the infinity gauntlet by example and just make himself immortal? Or at very least the body of a male and young mutant with healing factor, why an old woman?

Also the way he is killed was so, simple, I hasn't been so disappointed in the treatment of Doom since in "Punisher kills the marvel universe" he got murdered by a magnetic grenade.

In resumen to much plot convenience to my tastes and a weak finale for a run that I was enjoying until this point.

[Ambaryerno]

Yes and no; double-checked my trade paperback when getting the quote, and literally three pages earlier, Gabby had seen Trianry's video message calling for help due to her Robin Hood side gig ("And, just like that, I have a new hero"). Fair enough though, that it doesn't quite look like Gabby saw her on a bus, but the characters are never shown riding a bus anywhere in the story, nor is there any other girl character Gabby was seen meeting before. Trinary seems to be the logical person Gabby was talking about, unless she was talking about something completely off camera.

Gabby doesn't have to be mentioning an incident that happened on-panel. Characters DO have lives beyond what occurs there, and it's not like we NEED to actually see the encounter itself. Gabby saw a girl on a bus some time, and she's expressing now that she has confused feelings she wants the chance to process herself.

And Gabby calling Trinary her "new hero" is no different than her telling Deadpool "[they're] best friends now," or calling Old Man Logan her "interdimensional dystopian future grandpa." It's simply Gabby's way to make pronouncements on her relationships with people, and the fact she's actually CONFUSED about her feelings for someone makes her response stand out. It doesn't fit with her previous declaration.

Also, Taylor's own social media response to the comments suggested this is someone entirely unrelated to Trinary. As I recall, he explicitly said it's no one we've met before, which automatically rules Trinary out. So unless some future writer sees the same thing as you and decides to retcon it, the Girl on the Bus is still a mystery.

[H-E-D]

I'm tired of Doom always being the final villain for everything.

[Dthirds3]

I'm tired of Doom always being the final villain for everything.

What else would you have, marvel applying effort to creat a new character and build them up ?

[Tycon]

And also Ed “Cyclops Was Wrong” Brisson for some reason.

Ed “Anole gives the mutant vaccine to ONE” Brisson.

Pick your poison. Or vaccine.

Considering we've been told that everything prior to Hickman's run was setup, HoX/Dox is technically a part of those stories. But judging his writing on its own is a fair point to make. That being said, I wasn't making the argument that his setup for his story is cynical and therefore terrible. I was making the point that his story is based on cynicism and is therefore logical. He sets up the situation himself with Moria's past lives. They create the situation for mutants to try something entirely different because they lose no matter what. As a result, Krakoa makes sense as a solution because living in peace with humans is something that can never be obtained. That to me presents a cynical view towards the X-men's situation. There's no hope for our characters unless they "cheat" and the end result is left unknown to us. It creates tension in that mutants are likely to fail, but here they are living optimistically. It's a cynical view, but it makes Krakoa work. Without Rosenberg's story of hopelessness (as well as Moira's lives), Krakoa would seem like an odd choice. At least in my opinion, especially if the X-men could live somewhat peacefully in their mansion.

I mostly agree, but that’s the thing. Rosenberg’s run helped tremendously but House of X #2 really helps give you everything that you need to know.

Moira outright tells Xavier his optimism is a flaw! And the framing and point where they have this discussion is important. If this had happened right after the recent grimdark run of Uncanny, it would almost make sense. But by making this something they decided AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE XMEN, that cast a pall over everything they have ever done. They didn't change their minds in response to what happened; they never had those ideals in the first place.

And that was what got me thinking about Old Woman Laura again. That was a bright future where the good guys won. They succeeded and things were largely peaceful, and they didn't have to throw away everything they stood for in the process. The existence of a happy future strikes against the argument Moira makes, as it shows that its at least possible for things to work out. She just screwed up in her lifetimes.

The worst thing is I could actually get behind this idea under different circumstances. If Jean, Cyclops and Wolverine had gotten together and decided after the awful Uncanny run that they needed to make another serious go at a mutant nation to protect all mutants, I would have understood. Throw out the gaslighting, the stupid McGuffin plants and the clones. Don't work with Sinister or Apocalypse (a sure sign that this current situation is doomed). They can even still live on Krakoa. It could have worked, and it could have been optimistic.

But being told that it’s a flaw still isn’t cynical. Again, it’s a realistic approach considering Moira’s lives through an entire lifetime following Xavier’s way and it only got them killed. There is nothing inherently skeptical about Moira’s attitude, it’s simply what is and her offering a better solution saves the mutants from following a leader down a doomed path. Also POX6 clearly explains that although Moira had told Xavier what happens, he was ignorant of much of what she told him and continued down his cheery but naive dream.

The OWL has a........cute premise I guess? It doesn’t do anything to address the anti-mutant prejudice and discrimination and tbf it didn’t have the room to do so, either. There’s no one person that can just be punched that will end hatred or else MANY persecuted groups would’ve jumped up at the first opportunity. Moira exploring her lives aren’t her losing, she’s literally adapting to everything she’s learned in each life. And she definitely shouldn’t be at fault for the way mutants are viewed and treated that lead her to die in most of her lives.

They aren’t clones and no one is being “gaslighted.”

[The Big G]

Could just be that Tom Taylor was thinking it would make for a good story and it wasn't meant to be bleed over into anything else and fair enough that the ending implies that the problem will be cracked. I guess I'd just prefer the degeneration to be exclusive to that reality, although, as "spirit2011" pointed out, comic book time isn't going to let us get there or anything.

I still think that he was going to use it as kind of "Intermission" arc and that in search for a cure would take Future Laura and Gabby back into the past to meet present day Laura and Gabby.

[pkingdom]

They are clones, and Moira and Xavier working towards Krakoa while lying to everyone else about believing in peaceful coexistence is gaslighting. And if Moira didn't who Xavier exactly what was going to happen, she wouldn't have been able to convince him. They knew things like the Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past, Age of Apocalypse, M Day, the Phoenix Five and so on were going to happen but didn't do anything to stop it. If its not gaslighting, then its puppet master manipulation to an extreme degree.

[PsychoEFrost]

They are clones, and Moira and Xavier working towards Krakoa while lying to everyone else about believing in peaceful coexistence is gaslighting. And if Moira didn't who Xavier exactly what was going to happen, she wouldn't have been able to convince him. They knew things like the Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past, Age of Apocalypse, M Day, the Phoenix Five and so on were going to happen but didn't do anything to stop it. If its not gaslighting, then its puppet master manipulation to an extreme degree.

You didn't answer this question the last time it was asked, so I'll ask again.

What makes these revivals "clones", but not the other 16 times the X-Men have all been killed?

[spirit2011]

Gabby doesn't have to be mentioning an incident that happened on-panel. Characters DO have lives beyond what occurs there, and it's not like we NEED to actually see the encounter itself. Gabby saw a girl on a bus some time, and she's expressing now that she has confused feelings she wants the chance to process herself.

And Gabby calling Trinary her "new hero" is no different than her telling Deadpool "[they're] best friends now," or calling Old Man Logan her "interdimensional dystopian future grandpa." It's simply Gabby's way to make pronouncements on her relationships with people, and the fact she's actually CONFUSED about her feelings for someone makes her response stand out. It doesn't fit with her previous declaration.

Also, Taylor's own social media response to the comments suggested this is someone entirely unrelated to Trinary. As I recall, he explicitly said it's no one we've met before, which automatically rules Trinary out. So unless some future writer sees the same thing as you and decides to retcon it, the Girl on the Bus is still a mystery.

The girl on the bus have nothing to do with Trinary

[Tycon]

They are clones, and Moira and Xavier working towards Krakoa while lying to everyone else about believing in peaceful coexistence is gaslighting. And if Moira didn't who Xavier exactly what was going to happen, she wouldn't have been able to convince him. They knew things like the Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past, Age of Apocalypse, M Day, the Phoenix Five and so on were going to happen but didn't do anything to stop it. If its not gaslighting, then its puppet master manipulation to an extreme degree.

While the creation of certain mutants and prepared endings of important events had to be artificially recreated, Xavier still believed in his dream. From POX5, Namor doesn’t even believe that Xavier’s truly changed. Also, honestly, do you think the Dawn of X writers want to write about the clones of their casts or the real deal?

[spirit2011]

While the creation of certain mutants and prepared endings of important events had to be artificially recreated, Xavier still believed in his dream. From POX5, Namor doesn’t even believe that Xavier’s truly changed. Also, honestly, do you think the Dawn of X writers want to write about the clones of their casts or the real deal?

I don't think so, he seemed very into Krakoa when talking with Magneto at the end of the big party.

That is namor opinion, but nothing that we see make me think Xavier is into this.

For sure Hickman doesn't think he is writing about clones

[Ambaryerno]

The girl on the bus have nothing to do with Trinary

I know, that's what I'm trying to tell Lurker. :-P