Old Woman Laura discussion

[Ambaryerno]

Seriously? Enemy of the State II?

Enemy of the State II was the worst arc in the series.

The pacing was inconsistent, the first half of the third issue was completely at odds with the second half, it quickly became tensionless, the solutions provided were cheap and weightless, the one good moment (Her killing Kimura ) was undermined by an inappropriate epic pose, and a final declaration of self being an appropriated moniker uniformly associated with someone else. (The associated implications of which are "I am desperately trying to be something I'm not."; which was the opposite of what they were going for.); and to top it off, they copped out on the inciting incident in a manner that makes neither logical or logistical sense when held to the slightest scrutiny. (Occam's razor says Bellona is lying.)

I'm not exactly a the biggest fan of Old Woman Laura, but Enemy of the State II was garbage.

The resolution of the Trigger Scent made perfect sense. They were never able to do it before because no one could see what was actually going on in her head while she was affected, and this was the key to undoing the conditioning. This required a sample of the trigger, which they didn't have access to until Kimura helpfully provided her one in the first part of the story, and someone they could actually APPLY it to she wouldn't tear to shreds in the process. While Logan could have stood in for Gabby in the past, (MAYBE a TK could have restrained her, but the trigger didn't exactly turn off her brain; Laura was still just as smart and resourceful under the effects as when she's not, so could have possibly found a way to neutralize a TK restraint) they still didn't have a sample of the trigger to induce the effect. Also, Emma wasn't inclined to do much about the trigger in the first place. She just wanted Laura GONE, period.

[WebLurker]

Gabby doesn't have to be mentioning an incident that happened on-panel. Characters DO have lives beyond what occurs there, and it's not like we NEED to actually see the encounter itself. Gabby saw a girl on a bus some time, and she's expressing now that she has confused feelings she wants the chance to process herself.

And Gabby calling Trinary her "new hero" is no different than her telling Deadpool "[they're] best friends now," or calling Old Man Logan her "interdimensional dystopian future grandpa." It's simply Gabby's way to make pronouncements on her relationships with people, and the fact she's actually CONFUSED about her feelings for someone makes her response stand out. It doesn't fit with her previous declaration.

Also, Taylor's own social media response to the comments suggested this is someone entirely unrelated to Trinary. As I recall, he explicitly said it's no one we've met before, which automatically rules Trinary out. So unless some future writer sees the same thing as you and decides to retcon it, the Girl on the Bus is still a mystery.

Fair enough, but it's sure a really confusing noodle incident to just drop like that, esp. since it really reads like we're supposed to know what she's talking about.

[H-E-D]

What else would you have, marvel applying effort to creat a new character and build them up ?

If it's an X-Men book, just use an X-Men character.

[pkingdom]

I think including characters like President Kamala and the odd team Old Laura formed did serve a purpose. By having these disparate characters working together, it was a way of showing that characters from all across the Marvel spectrum were capable of talking and working together instead of infighting and sneaking around each other. I can easily see why it would baffle people though. I've had that thought about other teams and other books. Looking at you, Strikeforce

[Dthirds3]

Regarding enemy 2, It did was it needed to do conceptual. Got rid of the reset button in trigger scent and by getting rid of kimura, made it so you have to build her rouge gallery.this would have lead to Laura having more villains then facility members and random criminals maybe finally going up against kingpin. These were good things but it would have required long term investment to her development. Could have lead to alot of intresting things

[Nazrel]

The resolution of the Trigger Scent made perfect sense. They were never able to do it before because no one could see what was actually going on in her head while she was affected, and this was the key to undoing the conditioning. This required a sample of the trigger, which they didn't have access to until Kimura helpfully provided her one in the first part of the story, and someone they could actually APPLY it to she wouldn't tear to shreds in the process. While Logan could have stood in for Gabby in the past, (MAYBE a TK could have restrained her, but the trigger didn't exactly turn off her brain; Laura was still just as smart and resourceful under the effects as when she's not, so could have possibly found a way to neutralize a TK restraint) they still didn't have a sample of the trigger to induce the effect. Also, Emma wasn't inclined to do much about the trigger in the first place. She just wanted Laura GONE, period.

I didn't say it didn't make sense, I said it was cheap and lacked weight.

The fact it is easily rationalized does not make it good or well executed; quick, easy, or perfect, you can only have 2 and keep it credulous.

[WebLurker]

I didn't say it didn't make sense, I said it was cheap and lacked weight.

The fact it is easily rationalized does not make it good or well executed; quick, easy, or perfect, you can only have 2 and keep it credulous.

For the sake of discussion, what kinds of things do you think would've made it not cheap and light-weight?

[Nazrel]

For the sake of discussion, what kinds of things do you think would've made it not cheap and light-weight?

Off the top of my head.

Not Quick - She doesn't get better just like that, but a process beings where she'll hopefully eventually get a grip on it. This becomes part of the overarching plot for the rest of the series.

Not Easy - It's not so simple as her just walking out the metaphorical door, she has to struggle against it, something keeps trying to drags her back; preferably this is happening at an appropriately dramatic point where failing to reign it in will have dire consequences.

Not Perfect - It gets better, but it doesn't go away. She won't black out and kill anyone, but it will be a struggle to reign herself in.

[Ambaryerno]

Off the top of my head.

Not Quick - She doesn't get better just like that, but a process beings where she'll hopefully eventually get a grip on it. This becomes part of the overarching plot for the rest of the series.

Not Easy - It's not so simple as her just walking out the metaphorical door, she has to struggle against it, something keeps trying to drags her back; preferably this is happening at an appropriately dramatic point where failing to reign it in will have dire consequences.

Not Perfect - It gets better, but it doesn't go away. She won't black out and kill anyone, but it will be a struggle to reign herself in.

Well, I disagree with ALL of this.

1) The trigger scent had long been played out. It was at the point where it just needed to be dealt with already. In fact it got SO bad that the most original thing anyone had done with it was when Liu had a villain develop a version that would affect ANYONE...even though doing so COMPLETELY IGNORED HOW IT WORKED. And a second-rate villain like ARCADE, of all people, was able to get it.

At any rate, the effects of the trigger isn't mental illness. It's not something Laura can "work through." It's an involuntary response that shuts off her conscious thought processes. Telepathy is EXACTLY how it would need to be addressed.

2) The metaphor used was perfect, and suitably encapsulated what the trigger does to Laura, and what it IS to her. The combination of the trigger locking her in a cell in her own mind (and her consciousness retreating to the only happy memory she had while she was being tortured into it) and the recurring theme of Pinocchio and metaphorical "strings" controlling her like a puppet called directly back to her origins.

3) See point 1. At this point the only thing the trigger had been used for was to force a regression in Laura's character development (IE: Laura learning in ANXM that EVERYONE has now seen what the trigger does to her thanks to Arcade putting her back into the depressed state Liu put her in at the start of the solo book). Leaving the possibility she could still lose control would just keep that threat of regression hanging over her character.

Everything Taylor used to approach removing the trigger was well-executed, and the usefulness of the trigger as a plot point had passed. It was time to just get it over with already.

[pkingdom]

I agree. It was becoming one of those bad character tropes used to give a weakness to Laura that Wolverine didn't have, and a reason for her to have blind berserker rages like him. Tackling it head on and having her move past it was essential for character growth and honestly kind of refreshing to see. Letting it just be 'something she could work on' would have left the door open for it to always be a problem.

[H-E-D]

Trigger scent had been played out for years, yeah.

[FIGHT]

Off the top of my head.

Not Quick - She doesn't get better just like that, but a process beings where she'll hopefully eventually get a grip on it. This becomes part of the overarching plot for the rest of the series.

Not Easy - It's not so simple as her just walking out the metaphorical door, she has to struggle against it, something keeps trying to drags her back; preferably this is happening at an appropriately dramatic point where failing to reign it in will have dire consequences.

Not Perfect - It gets better, but it doesn't go away. She won't black out and kill anyone, but it will be a struggle to reign herself in.

Holly shi* dude, we think alike. You reminded me of a story I use to have in my head for years. X-23 overcoming, and MASTERING her rage state is something I used to think about all the time, and we agree on the core concepts.

After that arc in X-force where she gets kidnapped and beat up by the facility and Kimura, there was a possibility to either get rid of, or use the trigger scent to her advantage.


X-club and utopia psychics could of easily wiped the mental connection from the scent to going Berserk.

One story I wanted to happen. She would no longer go Berserk when she smelled the scent, however X-club and psychics would somehow allow her to keep the berserker rage. They would simply sever the physical connection of the trigger scent, and make a new connection to the interior emotion of hatred/rage/whatever. She would no longer need a stimulus and can enter this state of her own will. This will be a gift and a curse. At first when in this trance like state Laura would now kill whatever living thing is close to her, rather then a target with the scent. And she would do so in the most brutal, but efficient manner because she won't be held back by emotions or useless thoughts. Only the KILL would consume her, and everything that lives around her would become a target. She becomes the perfect weapon for a short amount of time.

The downside is obvious. She would momentarily loose control of herself and won't be able to tell friend form foe. I can see a (good) writer having fun with this concept tho. Her being forced to go berserk but putting a friend at risk, and the slow mastering of her emotions; which at this point in time she legit does not understand. I can imagine some fun stories.


This story would have to take place sometime after Necrosha or Second Coming so this would be the X-23 of old. The X-23 that after making some progress becoming human-ish by befriending the new x-men, serverly regressed back to her original programming while in X-force.

I would only trust Craig Kyle and Christopher Yost to tell this story in a good, believable, and enjoyable way.

[Nazrel]

Well, I disagree with ALL of this.

1) The trigger scent had long been played out. It was at the point where it just needed to be dealt with already. In fact it got SO bad that the most original thing anyone had done with it was when Liu had a villain develop a version that would affect ANYONE...even though doing so COMPLETELY IGNORED HOW IT WORKED. And a second-rate villain like ARCADE, of all people, was able to get it.

At any rate, the effects of the trigger isn't mental illness. It's not something Laura can "work through." It's an involuntary response that shuts off her conscious thought processes. Telepathy is EXACTLY how it would need to be addressed.

2) The metaphor used was perfect, and suitably encapsulated what the trigger does to Laura, and what it IS to her. The combination of the trigger locking her in a cell in her own mind (and her consciousness retreating to the only happy memory she had while she was being tortured into it) and the recurring theme of Pinocchio and metaphorical "strings" controlling her like a puppet called directly back to her origins.

3) See point 1. At this point the only thing the trigger had been used for was to force a regression in Laura's character development (IE: Laura learning in ANXM that EVERYONE has now seen what the trigger does to her thanks to Arcade putting her back into the depressed state Liu put her in at the start of the solo book). Leaving the possibility she could still lose control would just keep that threat of regression hanging over her character.

Everything Taylor used to approach removing the trigger was well-executed, and the usefulness of the trigger as a plot point had passed. It was time to just get it over with already.

Okay, to clarify, I to am happy the trigger sent is gone, but I'm not going to pretend it didn't come off as disappointing and unsatisfying conclusion to a long running plot point.

I also didn't say don't use telepathy, but a sense of triumph, requires a sense of struggle; an abrupt "Hey, look I'm suddenly all better of this thing that has plagued me my whole life." is not narratively satisfying. To quick, to easy, to perfect, to clean. (I personally think combining 1 and 3 would have been optimal.)

You are far to metatextually focused on what you view as the necessary imperative of the trigger scents complete removal, which is non-germane to my point, it could have been done better. (and the threat of the return of the trigger scent will always hang over the character, it just requires one lazy writer coming up with a lame excuse.)

Holly shi* dude, we think alike. You reminded me of a story I use to have in my head for years. X-23 overcoming, and MASTERING her rage state is something I used to think about all the time, and we agree on the core concepts.

After that arc in X-force where she gets kidnapped and beat up by the facility and Kimura, there was a possibility to either get rid of, or use the trigger scent to her advantage.


X-club and utopia psychics could of easily wiped the mental connection from the scent to going Berserk.

One story I wanted to happen. She would no longer go Berserk when she smelled the scent, however X-club and psychics would somehow allow her to keep the berserker rage. They would simply sever the physical connection of the trigger scent, and make a new connection to the interior emotion of hatred/rage/whatever. She would no longer need a stimulus and can enter this state of her own will. This will be a gift and a curse. At first when in this trance like state Laura would now kill whatever living thing is close to her, rather then a target with the scent. And she would do so in the most brutal, but efficient manner because she won't be held back by emotions or useless thoughts. Only the KILL would consume her, and everything that lives around her would become a target. She becomes the perfect weapon for a short amount of time.

The downside is obvious. She would momentarily loose control of herself and won't be able to tell friend form foe. I can see a (good) writer having fun with this concept tho. Her being forced to go berserk but putting a friend at risk, and the slow mastering of her emotions; which at this point in time she legit does not understand. I can imagine some fun stories.


This story would have to take place sometime after Necrosha or Second Coming so this would be the X-23 of old. The X-23 that after making some progress becoming human-ish by befriending the new x-men, serverly regressed back to her original programming while in X-force.

I would only trust Craig Kyle and Christopher Yost to tell this story in a good, believable, and enjoyable way.

We really don't think the same... I think giving her a berserker rage would be a terrible mistake, and antithetically at odds with her character; as well as making a derivative character less distinct from the original is inherently a bad idea.

[Coatl]

Off the top of my head.

Not Quick - She doesn't get better just like that, but a process beings where she'll hopefully eventually get a grip on it. This becomes part of the overarching plot for the rest of the series.

Not Easy - It's not so simple as her just walking out the metaphorical door, she has to struggle against it, something keeps trying to drags her back; preferably this is happening at an appropriately dramatic point where failing to reign it in will have dire consequences.

Not Perfect - It gets better, but it doesn't go away. She won't black out and kill anyone, but it will be a struggle to reign herself in.

I kind of understood how you feel and that's my major issue with the whole run, all seems "too easy", "to convenient", there is no sense of risk or effort, just go, do it, enjoy it. But to be just I also had that feeling in Orphans of X arc and still I enjoyed the arc.

Back to the the tigger essence, it was a serious drawback that Laura hated and make he dangerous to everybody, making more difficult her already difficult social development, getting free of it shouldn't have been so easy and inconsecuencial. The way that Jean a barely trained telequinetical/physiquician was able to do what Emma (with much more experience and who has to deal with Wolverine) before can't with almost no effort was unsatisfactory. That should have been a major arc in Laura development and would have been very interesting.

The human brain hasn't a switch, that response was the result of several years of conditioning that effectively caused a mental illness and a physical response, actually the physical response was the proof of how serious was the mental damage.

About if Emma tried or not to get rid of the reaction, the response is SHE TRIED, she said it very clear to Kimura before erasing her happy memories, she had tried but the damage was too extensive and deep to just be suddenly erased and I liked that explanation. That sadly got forgotten by convenience.

Yes, I liked that Laura get rid of it, but the development could certainly be better.

Still that's is just a detail in the middle or and arc that in general terms I enjoyed, I liked seeing Bellona again and that Laura got rid of the (let's be honest) boring and plain Kimura. By then, I still enjoyed Gabby quirks and I have to admit that I don't like Teen Jean so her actions tends to bother me more that it should and I conscious about it.

[Ambaryerno]

And as I already pointed out, Emma also never got to see what was actually happening inside Laura's head while she was under its effects. Jean DID, and that was the key to fixing it. In such a case it doesn't matter how powerful a telepath Emma is.