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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Default Marvel's Trouble with "Status Quo"?

    With the last issue of superior Spider-Man we once again get a "fear to change the status quo" with marvel. I just came from another forum site and they are tearing marvel apart over it! One comment was "I feel like I wasted a year reading this." It was all for nothing. It's like we are in a episode of he-man from the 80s. Nothing can change and everything must stay the same by the end. If there is a change we must change it back.


    Dr doom--after 40 years of the same story over and over and overusing him to the point people are sick of him they change it up. Doom gets a much needed change. They fix his face and make him a "anti hero". He made ties with the fantastic four also and can grow as a character. Can't have that. Bad guy again right away throwing away all that character growth.


    Galactus--After the 200th story of him wanting to eat the earth they did something new and fresh with him! They turned him good. Can't have that! Back to status quo by a year.

    Sandman--Turned good and grew as a hero even joining the avengers! Can't have that. Mind control (how lazy can you get! Also why has the thing not cured him yet? They have the cure and have used it twice!)

    Spider-man--Gets married and grows as a hero. New stories can be told without spidey "not having money" for the 2000th time. Can't have that! It's magic and spideys acting like a 10 years old again. (isn't that what ultimate Spider-Man was for?)

    Torch--Marries and grows as a hero. Stops acting like a child. Can't have that. Wife's a skrull and he turns back into a ten year old again flushing years of growth.

    Old man logan and female wolverine--Nope bring the old one back.


    It's like marvel is to scared to grow it's heroes. Magneto turned good? Nope we want him as a bad guy again. Is marvel (and dc with the batman wedding) just scared to change? When they do change something it's undone after a few years and they "return to staus quo."

    If hawkeye and wanda were new bad guys they would never stayed as heroes today. They would have turned bad again!


    And marvel wonders why they are getting beat by manga and young reader books in sales. How long before the new X-Men titles go back to what they were?


    Is this starting to be a problem or is everything still fine with marvel never letting heroes or bad guys grow?


    What do you guys think? Is it really nothing or is it starting to be a problem for marvel?

  2. #2
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    With the last issue of superior Spider-Man we once again get a "fear to change the status quo" with marvel. I just came from another forum site and they are tearing marvel apart over it! One comment was "I feel like I wasted a year reading this." It was all for nothing. It's like we are in a episode of he-man from the 80s. Nothing can change and everything must stay the same by the end. If there is a change we must change it back.


    Dr doom--after 40 years of the same story over and over and overusing him to the point people are sick of him they change it up. Doom gets a much needed change. They fix his face and make him a "anti hero". He made ties with the fantastic four also and can grow as a character. Can't have that. Bad guy again right away throwing away all that character growth.


    Galactus--After the 200th story of him wanting to eat the earth they did something new and fresh with him! They turned him good. Can't have that! Back to status quo by a year.

    Sandman--Turned good and grew as a hero even joining the avengers! Can't have that. Mind control (how lazy can you get! Also why has the thing not cured him yet? They have the cure and have used it twice!)

    Spider-man--Gets married and grows as a hero. New stories can be told without spidey "not having money" for the 2000th time. Can't have that! It's magic and spideys acting like a 10 years old again. (isn't that what ultimate Spider-Man was for?)

    Torch--Marries and grows as a hero. Stops acting like a child. Can't have that. Wife's a skrull and he turns back into a ten year old again flushing years of growth.

    Old man logan and female wolverine--Nope bring the old one back.


    It's like marvel is to scared to grow it's heroes. Magneto turned good? Nope we want him as a bad guy again. Is marvel (and dc with the batman wedding) just scared to change? When they do change something it's undone after a few years and they "return to staus quo."

    If hawkeye and wanda were new bad guys they would never stayed as heroes today. They would have turned bad again!


    And marvel wonders why they are getting beat by manga and young reader books in sales. How long before the new X-Men titles go back to what they were?


    Is this starting to be a problem or is everything still fine with marvel never letting heroes or bad guys grow?


    What do you guys think? Is it really nothing or is it starting to be a problem for marvel?
    Change is a like a rubber band, it will only go so far before it snaps back and pokes you in the eye.

    This is true for all corporate super hero comic books both for Marvel & DC.

    Corporations want new readers and they think the only way to do so is with a new starting point with the same status quo over and over again.

  3. #3
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    With the last issue of superior Spider-Man we once again get a "fear to change the status quo" with marvel. I just came from another forum site and they are tearing marvel apart over it! One comment was "I feel like I wasted a year reading this." It was all for nothing. It's like we are in a episode of he-man from the 80s. Nothing can change and everything must stay the same by the end. If there is a change we must change it back.


    Dr doom--after 40 years of the same story over and over and overusing him to the point people are sick of him they change it up. Doom gets a much needed change. They fix his face and make him a "anti hero". He made ties with the fantastic four also and can grow as a character. Can't have that. Bad guy again right away throwing away all that character growth.


    Galactus--After the 200th story of him wanting to eat the earth they did something new and fresh with him! They turned him good. Can't have that! Back to status quo by a year.

    Sandman--Turned good and grew as a hero even joining the avengers! Can't have that. Mind control (how lazy can you get! Also why has the thing not cured him yet? They have the cure and have used it twice!)

    Spider-man--Gets married and grows as a hero. New stories can be told without spidey "not having money" for the 2000th time. Can't have that! It's magic and spideys acting like a 10 years old again. (isn't that what ultimate Spider-Man was for?)

    Torch--Marries and grows as a hero. Stops acting like a child. Can't have that. Wife's a skrull and he turns back into a ten year old again flushing years of growth.

    Old man logan and female wolverine--Nope bring the old one back.


    It's like marvel is to scared to grow it's heroes. Magneto turned good? Nope we want him as a bad guy again. Is marvel (and dc with the batman wedding) just scared to change? When they do change something it's undone after a few years and they "return to staus quo."

    If hawkeye and wanda were new bad guys they would never stayed as heroes today. They would have turned bad again!


    And marvel wonders why they are getting beat by manga and young reader books in sales. How long before the new X-Men titles go back to what they were?


    Is this starting to be a problem or is everything still fine with marvel never letting heroes or bad guys grow?


    What do you guys think? Is it really nothing or is it starting to be a problem for marvel?
    Change is a funny thing. Sometimes people like it and sometimes they don't. Should Ben Reily have stayed Spider-Man while Peter retired with Mary Jane and walked off into the sunset? Should Steve had stayed dead so Bucky could take up the mantle of Captain America? Should Jane Foster have stayed Thor? Should the Super Hero Regustration Act and the Initiative have remained the status quo of the marvel universe? Some might say yes and some might say no, depending on whether or not they liked it.

    But ultimately I think the return to status quo is the way to go. It's just how this particular genre works, and if that turns people off then they probably should read manga or whatever. I think at this point, outside new readers comic book readers sort of know that's the way it is.

  4. #4
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Change is a funny thing. Sometimes people like it and sometimes they don't. Should Ben Reily have stayed Spider-Man while Peter retired with Mary Jane and walked off into the sunset? Should Steve had stayed dead so Bucky could take up the mantle of Captain America? Should Jane Foster have stayed Thor? Should the Super Hero Regustration Act and the Initiative have remained the status quo of the marvel universe? Some might say yes and some might say no, depending on whether or not they liked it.

    But ultimately I think the return to status quo is the way to go. It's just how this particular genre works, and if that turns people off then they probably should read manga or whatever. I think at this point, outside new readers comic book readers sort of know that's the way it is.
    If that's the case then there shouldn't be continuity, that would solve everything.

    We can have classic heroes with the classic status quo and amazing writers. They could write whatever they want and end it on their own terms and once they do another writer can write their version with the same classic status quo.

  5. #5

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    You forgot the White Queen. She was turned into a hero, had a romace with Cyclops more interesting than Jean's, but then returned to "the White Queen welcomes you to die!" mode

  6. #6
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    If that's the case then there shouldn't be continuity, that would solve everything.

    We can have classic heroes with the classic status quo and amazing writers. They could write whatever they want and end it on their own terms and once they do another writer can write their version with the same classic status quo.
    Continuity matters to a lot of readers, and frankly a lot of writers. If we see something in the present book which conflicts with issue #234 we go online and complain about it. Comic book readers (and sci-fi fans in general) aren't very forgiving in this regard.

    THat's not to say that retcons don't happen ... they do. Continuity needs to be fluid, but it can't just not exist. Many readers just wouldn't accept that. Again, that's just the nature of the genre.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    It's a problem modern comics had in general. You can't smash the status quo every 10 months for a sales boost since doing so ensures the change will have no emotional weight.

  8. #8
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    You forgot the White Queen. She was turned into a hero, had a romace with Cyclops more interesting than Jean's, but then returned to "the White Queen welcomes you to die!" mode
    debatable, got boring faster than the former one once the shock value was fully expended.
    "I'm looking forward to the court appearances without spray tan, hair dye and a professional comb-over."

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    So Ock is evil again?
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nontheless):

    DC: Batman Beyond, Red Hood, Far Sector, The Other History of the DC Universe, Truth and Justice, Future State: Wonder Woman
    Marvel: Damn near all the X-Books, Miles Morales: Spider-Man, Immortal Hulk, Venom, Daredevil
    LionForge: Noble, Astonisher
    Image: Killadelphia, Bitter Root, Excellence
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: XOGeneSYS, Clock Striker, Is'Nana The Were-Spider, Yohance, EXO Wale Williams

  10. #10
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Old status quo is almost always better.
    f/k/a The Black Guardian
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  11. #11
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Continuity matters to a lot of readers, and frankly a lot of writers. If we see something in the present book which conflicts with issue #234 we go online and complain about it. Comic book readers (and sci-fi fans in general) aren't very forgiving in this regard.

    THat's not to say that retcons don't happen ... they do. Continuity needs to be fluid, but it can't just not exist. Many readers just wouldn't accept that. Again, that's just the nature of the genre.
    I think you hit the nail on the head: fluidity

    However, a lot of fans want it to be rigid i.e. a beginning, a middle, and an end. We get the beginning and the middle and when we get close to the end the status quo changes so much that the reset button gets hit and we are back at the beginning

    Let's take the most famous case: Spider-Man

    We had a beginning that starts with Stan, we had decades of the middle, and we even came close to an end with Peter & MJ together but it all went to shit because in Marvel's eyes that is a end that cannot allow the character to continue, so they literally made a deal with the devil to reset everything.

    A recent example is Thor

    Ragnarok happened he got reset and brought back by JMS, he had an amazing arc where he went through trials and tribulations and Aaron is literally writing Thor's final story and in January the reset button is going to be hit again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    It's a problem modern comics had in general. You can't smash the status quo every 10 months for a sales boost since doing so ensures the change will have no emotional weight.
    I think this is why it feels so old hat and contrived

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    And marvel wonders why they are getting beat by manga and young reader books in sales. How long before the new X-Men titles go back to what they were?

    Is this starting to be a problem or is everything still fine with marvel never letting heroes or bad guys grow?

    What do you guys think? Is it really nothing or is it starting to be a problem for marvel?
    And who is doing the complaining? As we have seen it has been those who have NOT touched a Marvel book since The Bull last NBA title.
    The folks who don't like who is on the cover for a list of reasons that have nothing to do with story?


    Because running back and going into the "comfort" zone does nothing but screw over someone else. See Green Lantern & Flash franchise.
    Marvel & Dc get beat up by Manga & YA because the DRAMA is not with those two.

    I can read the Black Mage or New Kid or Shadow Rock and NO ONE is going to scream why is there a black boy as the lead.
    No little girl is going to get verbally abused by a grown man over Lumberjanes like one did over Moon Girl in a store.
    No one is screaming "respect the source material" with Buffy, Robotech nor Power Rangers like they do here.
    James Tynion did not get death threats for doing a book about LGBTQ content in Backstagers & The Woods like Gabby Rivera did for America.

    Sooner or later you have to look at who is the complainers. I can accept someone who has read the books but we got too many who have not doing more than yapping.

    That parent is going to go the easier route and not deal with grown men with entitlement issues.

  13. #13
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    And who is doing the complaining? As we have seen it has been those who have NOT touched a Marvel book since The Bull last NBA title.
    The folks who don't like who is on the cover for a list of reasons that have nothing to do with story?



    Because running back and going into the "comfort" zone does nothing but screw over someone else. See Green Lantern & Flash franchise.
    Marvel & Dc get beat up by Manga & YA because the DRAMA is not with those two.

    I can read the Black Mage or New Kid or Shadow Rock and NO ONE is going to scream why is there a black boy as the lead.
    No little girl is going to get verbally abused by a grown man over Lumberjanes like one did over Moon Girl in a store.
    No one is screaming "respect the source material" with Buffy, Robotech nor Power Rangers like they do here.
    James Tynion did not get death threats for doing a book about LGBTQ content in Backstagers & The Woods like Gabby Rivera did for America.

    Sooner or later you have to look at who is the complainers. I can accept someone who has read the books but we got too many who have not doing more than yapping.

    That parent is going to go the easier route and not deal with grown men with entitlement issues.
    I very much agree with that statement. Complaints are done by people who aren't reading the title because as they claim, "It isn't what I want to be reading."

    But don't blame the companies, blame the fans. On this forum someone asked the question, "how old should Supergirl be?" Many people said 15ish. Let's forget the many years of history for her, and make her 15. The Venom thread constantly talked about, "when is Eddie coming back as Venom?" In another Supergirl someone complained because her secret identity wasn't "nostalgic" enough.

    Everyone says "We want new stuff" followed by "Oh, but not that, change it back."
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  14. #14
    Boisterously Confused
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    First, it should surprise no one that a company has a bias toward Brand over Story.

    Second, the status quo frustrates mainly the long-time reader, or those that abandoned the title in the past, but might serve the (relatively) new reader quite well.

    I will confess that the lack of change used to annoy me. X-Men (and The New Teen Titans over at DC) seemed to be shaking everything up all through the 1980s. It frustrated me that other titles were not advancing their histories in a similar manner, and double frustrated me when all the X-Books (and Titans) began calcifying in the early 1990s. However, over time, I've decided letting the most iconic elements of the characters remain in place is not such a bad thing.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    No one is screaming "respect the source material" with Buffy, Robotech nor Power Rangers like they do here.
    Never went into the power rangers forums when the last movie came out huh? Also robotech vs macross fans can get nasty. Not sure about buffy. You should have been in the transformers forums with beast wars vs transformers (truck not monkey was yelled a lot) and it got nasty with beast wars vs beast machines for beast machines not following the plots to beast wars! Also ask dragonball fans about dragonball GT. But yes power rangers and robotech fans can get that way.

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