View Poll Results: Is superman responsible?

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  • Yes, clark is responsible. 20 people trumps one person

    2 12.50%
  • No, he isn't. Deaths are unfortunate.

    10 62.50%
  • I don't know. I am either confused or really, don't have an opinion

    4 25.00%
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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Saving Pa doesn't doom anyone else. It's not the same logic..

    It's how you present things. Returns did it better in those scenes I mentioned.
    Really, yeah! I beg to differ. Can you guarantee that? If you are utilitarian outcome needs to be given priority. In todays world a superman coming out party won't be so great. It is a guarantee that it will cause chaos. Especially, with religious nuts who need less incentive than a false prophet walking among them. You saw how pete's mom already declared clark as second coming of jesus.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! That's pretty badass. But, that's not possible everytime nor is it that simple. As i said its a win all or lose all situation. That could very well blow up in the guys face and the hostage will be dead. Its already been discussed.Every choice has bad outcome.
    The point is though, you don't make decisions from the PoV of an omniscient narrator. Also it's faulty logic to blame the hero for the actions of the villain. One can say it's about making the decision with the least bad outcome. Complying with the villain's demands is guaranteed to be the worst outcome, even if the hero doesn't know how yet. Arion's question is an empty thought experiment and deserves to be ignored.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    The point is though, you don't make decisions from the PoV of an omniscient narrator. Also it's faulty logic to blame the hero for the actions of the villain. One can say it's about making the decision with the least bad outcome. Complying with the villain's demands is guaranteed to be the worst outcome, even if the hero doesn't know how yet. Arion's question is an empty thought experiment and deserves to be ignored.
    Well, i don't blame hero for trying to rescue. But, if the guy is trying to be a badass who gets his hostage killed by being reckless. That's different. I have see hostages being exchanged by complying. The is more probability that noncompliance causing more damage.
    Anyways, that's not the topic. Nor is arion's question. But, clark's answer which is kantian ethics to a t. No, it isn't an empty thought experiment. It happens to people in real life. Cops, soldiers, firefighters.. Etc all can go through this. You are just relegating it because it uncomfortable to talk about.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, i don't blame hero for trying to rescue. But, if the guy is trying to be a badass who gets his hostage killed by being reckless. That's different. I have see hostages being exchanged by complying. The is more probability that noncompliance causing more damage.
    Anyways, that's not the topic. Nor is arion's question. But, clark's answer which is kantian ethics to a t. No, it isn't an empty thought experiment. It happens to people in real life. Cops, soldiers, firefighters.. Etc all can go through this. You are just relegating it because it uncomfortable to talk about.
    No I'm saying the question Arion asked was dumb because Arion was using a vague generalization as a reason not to act. When people discuss this sort of thing for real, they know that choices aren't binary, and that there are many ways a situation an end. When dealing with a hostage situation you evaluate what your actual options are. CAN you simply shoot the guy? Peaceful resolutions are usually because the negotiator explained to the perp what the perp's options were. Then the perp realized that his best option was to surrender to the police. This is because the police negotiated from a position of strength. IE: "we're going to shoot you if you don't surrender." Realistically, if the perp is making death threats towards his hostages, the longer he lives the more likely the hostages are to die.

    Arion's scenario is even more vague and less well defined.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    No I'm saying the question Arion asked was dumb because Arion was using a vague generalization as a reason not to act. When people discuss this sort of thing for real, they know that choices aren't binary, and that there are many ways a situation an end. When dealing with a hostage situation you evaluate what your actual options are. CAN you simply shoot the guy? Peaceful resolutions are usually because the negotiator explained to the perp what the perp's options were. Then the perp realized that his best option was to surrender to the police. This is because the police negotiated from a position of strength. IE: "we're going to shoot you if you don't surrender." Realistically, if the perp is making death threats towards his hostages, the longer he lives the more likely the hostages are to die.

    Arion's scenario is even more vague and less well defined.
    Again arion isn't the topic. It's Clark's moral position. And it's still doesn't change the fact that it's a win all or lose all situation. So, a chances of pure bad outcome is significantly higher. I have sepecified that it isn't about arion from the get go. This version of superman follows kantian ethics. The question is just a trolley problem.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Again arion isn't the topic. It's Clark's moral position. And it's still doesn't change the fact that it's a win all or lose all situation. So, a chances of pure bad outcome is significantly higher. I have sepecified that it isn't about arion from the get go. This version of superman follows kantian ethics. The question is just a trolley problem.
    The trolley problem isn't a real choice. That's the POINT of the trolley problem. It's a fake choice with an obvious right answer.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    The trolley problem isn't a real choice. That's the POINT of the trolley problem. It's a fake choice with an obvious right answer.
    What is that? Think outside the box, "find a way".. Etc have all been discussed. With similar bad outcomes and higher probability.
    It's not fake. It's a simulation with restricted variables. The restrictions of variables happen in real life too. If you don't think it does. I can't convince you. Also, this superman has a no kill policy. How is he going to take out the badguy like you proposed ? What if can't kill or over power the badguy, period?all i am saying is, for superman writers to actually make superman content with opposition with his moral positions and all its limitations . It isn't just a good guy/bad guy thing either. For example, redhood and batman.And to have superman actually face one of the bad outcomes of his choices.

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