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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    As pointed out, one of the weirdest things in the story is just the approximation of Batman himself. A guy sort of named Pete Ross and a childhood friend named Lana with red hair are on the line of the Elseworlds track, but then having an actual Russian Batman sort of crosses it where everything else was pretty clever.



    Honestly, my trade was lost to me before I ever got to Superman in DKR and the story itself hasn't gripped me enough to try again. But I always see this said and I don't get it, because it gives Miller too much credit and sets the impression that every segment where Superman isn't belittling Batman's efforts is a sign of character weakness. The point will always be that Superman is reluctant to hurt a normal guy who also proves to be a selfless resource in the never ending battle. Because he's not an X-Men, persecuted and against the wall, he can show considerable tolerance for a rightfully defensive attitude.
    Not sure I get what you mean. My point was more to do with Superman being painted as a “sellout” and a “stooge” in DKR which he is. He’s let the government turn him into a WMD to use against the Soviets and he’s seemingly abandoned his no kill rule iirc. He goes to beat up Batman because Bats embarrassed the government by stopping the riots in Gotham when not!Ronald Reagan couldn’t do so throughout the rest of the country. He also ripped Ollie’s arm off and let the government imprison him, although I think that got retconned so it wasn’t a pure Dick move. His redemption at the end comes when he tells the army to **** off and doesn’t turn Batman in when he realizes his plan.

  2. #17
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was speaking to the "colored every future interaction" thing. Miller was incredibly influential on the Batman franchise and changed much of the industry with DKR even if his work in the few years before that had already left a mark. But he's generally overstated when it comes to Superman and the idea of Superman and Batman. Miller and Byrne were on good terms, developing their stories featuring the two around the same time with some of the same inspirations for Superman and apparently some of the same political notions as an influence, but there's not much to imply that the post crisis rrelationship between Batman and Superman hinged on the creation of DKR. Elseworlds up to and specifically Red Son oddly might be the best example of the influence outside of the BvS movie though.
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  3. #18
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No longer needs him? Thats not really supported at all by TDKR. Hes the one who beats the Mutant Gang after all. Hes the one who keeps Gotham from descending into riots after the nuke while the rest of the country goes nuts. And of course hes the one who finally starts to push Superman out of his lapdog position, indirectly sure, but hes still the cause. TDKR is very much a validation that Batman is needed and always will be.
    D'oh! I meant to say "he FEELS no longer needs him (rightly or wrongly) but didn't have the decency to kill him." And even then I'm just talking about the Batman Vs Superman fight and what lead to and transpired during it.

    There is a heck of a lot to unpack in TDKR overall.
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