Superman vs Batman fight in Red Son

[Krypto's Fleas]

Why don't Superman fans object more to this needless fight in Red Son like they do to TDKR? If anything, I find it more insulting that Superman gets owned by Batman within a Superman story/title.

[DochaDocha]

Why don't Superman fans object more to this needless fight in Red Son like they do to TDKR? If anything, I find it more insulting that Superman gets owned by Batman within a Superman story/title.

Context.

I have some gripes with this fight, but mostly it's that

1) red sunlight shouldn't work that fast and
2) no way Batman should capture Wonder Woman, which is the real issue

Otherwise, Red Son Superman doesn't know his weakness and Batman takes advantage of it, but then Wonder Woman breaks her lasso and bails Superman out.

[Robotman]

Context.

I have some gripes with this fight, but mostly it's that

1) red sunlight shouldn't work that fast and
2) no way Batman should capture Wonder Woman, which is the real issue

Otherwise, Red Son Superman doesn't know his weakness and Batman takes advantage of it, but then Wonder Woman breaks her lasso and bails Superman out.

Not only did the red sunlight work way too fast but it really shouldn’t have made Supes as weak as a normal human. Even if he loses the powers he gets under a yellow sun, he still has Kryptonian physiology, which has evolved to withstand the high gravity and harsh conditions. He should still be way stronger and more durable than an average human.

[Kuwagaton]

Should, but historically he isn't. It used to be quite regular that his powers would immediately leave at once in red sunlight, so Millar isn't at all in the wrong with his showing of the powers. You could maybe take issue with how it's a low end showing if you care though. You might also very well take issue with the generic use of Diana as tragedy for Superman, even if it doesn't necessarily conflict with her character.

[Vordan]

Why don't Superman fans object more to this needless fight in Red Son like they do to TDKR? If anything, I find it more insulting that Superman gets owned by Batman within a Superman story/title.

Because it ends with Batman killing himself and Superman “winning” via his ability to inspire people to sacrifice themselves for him. It’s nowhere near as brutally deconstructive as DKR where Bruce calls Clark a b**** essentially and beats the hell out of him. But I don’t really have a problem with either anymore given how terrible some other Batman vs. Superman fights have deteriorated the ease with which Bats beats him up.

[kingaliencracker]

I love Red Son with an absolute passion, but it's not necessarily a good example of Superman "physics" or lore.

The other issue with the story is that it's supposed to be an alternate universe which asks what would happen if Kal-El crash-landed in Stalin-Russia versus America, but interchanges Superman (and DC) characters as both Russian and American or whatever nationality their main DC counterpart was (Batman being a perfect example).

To answer the question of the OP, however, I don't think fans really object to the fight in Red Son as they do with the fight in TDKR because TDKR's fight was clearly designed to make Bruce appear superior both morally and then physically, with Clark coming across an ineffectual bureaucrat. With Red Son, the morality of both men's position is skewed because Superman's actions aren't inherently evil especially given that he really didn't know Batman's motivations, whereas Batman's actions especially as they relate to Diana can appear extreme even if we know why he's doing it. I guess bottom line is it's more of a gray area than TDKR fight was.

[raidensix]

I always found it odd Superman never notices his powers are gone all of a sudden when secretly subjected to red flashlights.

[Powerboy]

Why don't Superman fans object more to this needless fight in Red Son like they do to TDKR? If anything, I find it more insulting that Superman gets owned by Batman within a Superman story/title.

Probably because DKR felt like a presentation of Superman at his worst possible slippery slope while Red Son felt like a strangely positive view of Superman despite his flaws.

I did draw the comparison to the DKR fight when I read Red Son but it was different. As someone already pointed out, the idea that Batman could beat Wonder Woman and move fast enough to get her own lasso around her was, well, right up there with Batman knocks the breath out of WW by kicking her in the stomach. Plot-Induced Stupidity at it's finest.

[adkal]

Why don't Superman fans object more to this needless fight in Red Son like they do to TDKR? If anything, I find it more insulting that Superman gets owned by Batman within a Superman story/title.

With Lex Luthor's help.

Not only did the red sunlight work way too fast but it really shouldn’t have made Supes as weak as a normal human. Even if he loses the powers he gets under a yellow sun, he still has Kryptonian physiology, which has evolved to withstand the high gravity and harsh conditions. He should still be way stronger and more durable than an average human.

Agreed, but, as Kuwagaton says:

Should, but historically he isn't. It used to be quite regular that his powers would immediately leave at once in red sunlight, so Millar isn't at all in the wrong with his showing of the powers.

Because it ends with Batman killing himself and Superman “winning” via his ability to inspire people to sacrifice themselves for him. It’s nowhere near as brutally deconstructive as DKR where Bruce calls Clark a b**** essentially and beats the hell out of him. But I don’t really have a problem with either anymore given how terrible some other Batman vs. Superman fights have deteriorated the ease with which Bats beats him up.

To answer the question of the OP, however, I don't think fans really object to the fight in Red Son as they do with the fight in TDKR because TDKR's fight was clearly designed to make Bruce appear superior both morally and then physically, with Clark coming across an ineffectual bureaucrat.

It never really read that way to me. Clark (lower-powered as he can't dodge the initial missiles) holds back throughout their encounter and Bruce's thoughts make it clear that he knew Clark was taking it easy on him. The panel where Clark tears off Bruce's cowl while pushing him back shows how careful Clark is trying to be. Bruce's (strength-enhancing*) armour gets torn up, his wrist is casually broken (crushed) and a lamp post is knocked down when Clark slowly swings a punch at it (we know it's slow because Clark got to Bruce's sonic gun before he could react (although, yes, one could argue that that was part of the plan)), allowing Bruce plenty of time to 'dodge' the blow and kick him in the googlies... but still get three ribs broken when Clark swings again (casually). It's only when the K-gas is used that things turn in Bruce's favour.

Throughout the fight, Clark is shown to be stronger physically - and him trying to talk to Bruce ('Now he's talking -- trying to reason with me. I can't hear him, of course... still talking -- keep talking, Clark')

The fight in Red Son is based around Lex's plan (the LexCorp Program) (which, in turn, incorporates a ton of analysis made available to him by the Soviets). The main issue, really (as Powerboy and others have said), is how the heck Batman beat Diana.


*(although this is conveyed in the impact of the blows, it isn't really described as such in the comic book (it does say, however, that the suit was fed by whatever didn't get blasted into Clark when Bruce used the city's power on him) (it's pretty clear in the animated version and in the Brave and Bold take on the fight)

[JackDaw]

Because it ends with Batman killing himself and Superman “winning” via his ability to inspire people to sacrifice themselves for him. It’s nowhere near as brutally deconstructive as DKR where Bruce calls Clark a b**** essentially and beats the hell out of him. But I don’t really have a problem with either anymore given how terrible some other Batman vs. Superman fights have deteriorated the ease with which Bats beats him up.

I have never been able to understand that type of characterisation of what happens in DKR.

To me what actually happen so:-

1/ Superman is temporarily weakened by dealing with a nuclear missile.

2/ Batman has rigged himself up with entire power supply of city via a lamppost and electric gauntlet (let’s not worry about all the scientific reasons why this wouldn’t work!) and requests Superman’s help.

3/ Superman obliges...and Batman cold cocks him, and hits him as hard as he can with mechanical gauntlet.

4/ Superman staggers back, looks surprised, and flies off

Basically Superman doesn’t want to fight his friend. If he had he could have nerfed the Bat in all sorts of ways before flying off...not least by flying about 20 ft above the Bat, and giving him a dose of heat vision.

Later on at the funeral Clark clearly sees through the Bat’s fake death, and again supports his friend by refusing to expose him.

There are reasons why I don’t like Superman’s portrayal in DKR...but I am always baffled at notion he got a physical beating...that to me is an extraordinary interpretation of what is shown in the words and artwork.

[Vordan]

Guys he absolutely did get a physical beating in DKR. I’ve seen some people try to paint the DKR fight as a “win” because he didn’t want to fight, but it still ended with Bruce kicking the hell out of him and monologuing about how only he could be badass enough to win. DKR is great and I’ve never held the anger towards it that a lot of other people do, mostly because the people trying to copy it did such a worse job, but it is a brutally deconstructive take on Supes. Not a totally unkind one, he does get to save America from a nuke, he did try to reason with Bruce, and it’s made clear he doesn’t like the status quo and he’s only doing it to save lives, but he’s also a government stooge and that colored every future Batman/Superman interaction. He’s lost his way and the narrative clearly paints Batman as his superior. But Miller puts in the work to really make it feel like a Herculean effort from Bats to win so it feels earned unlike every lazy successor which is just “Batman puts on a Kryptonite mech suit and kicks his ass because Supes has never dealt with a super genius with a god complex in a mech suit”

[adkal]

Guys he absolutely did get a physical beating in DKR. I’ve seen some people try to paint the DKR fight as a “win” because he didn’t want to fight, but it still ended with Bruce kicking the hell out of him and monologuing about how only he could be badass enough to win. DKR is great and I’ve never held the anger towards it that a lot of other people do, mostly because the people trying to copy it did such a worse job, but it is a brutally deconstructive take on Supes. Not a totally unkind one, he does get to save America from a nuke, he did try to reason with Bruce, and it’s made clear he doesn’t like the status quo and he’s only doing it to save lives, but he’s also a government stooge and that colored every future Batman/Superman interaction. He’s lost his way and the narrative clearly paints Batman as his superior. But Miller puts in the work to really make it feel like a Herculean effort from Bats to win so it feels earned unlike every lazy successor which is just “Batman puts on a Kryptonite mech suit and kicks his ass because Supes has never dealt with a super genius with a god complex in a mech suit”

It's a 'win of intent' rather than a physical win - Clark is the one who walked away from that fight, Bruce's heart stops and he collapses in Clark's arms.

If Bruce hadn't taken the pill before the fight, he still would have lost. After spraying Clark's face with acid and sticking a bomb on his back, he tells Ollie that he's running out of tricks. He's goading Clark to focus his attention solely on him rather than anything around them, so Ollie can get the arrow in without Clark frying it at a distance.

Despite the effects of the gas, Clark realises something is up with Bruce's heart. At this point, it's Bruce punching someone who has just had a massive dose of radiotherapy and lets him wail on him.

After the infamous boot-to-the-face, Bruce grabs Clark by the throat and, seconds later, collapses. Clark immediately holds his fallen friend.

The initial effects of the gas were wearing off pretty quickly. Any longer and it probably would have been like what happened in BvS when we had the WWE-moment.

Clark crushed Bruce's wrist and broke three of his ribs, without trying.

Clark walked away.

The second fight in DKSA was along similar lines, and it's only in Master Race that Bruce realises Clark truly and absolutely has been holding back the whole time and that Bruce never had a chance against him.

[exile001]

I have to agree with adkal & JackDaw, I've never understood the argument that Batman owned Superman, or made him look weak.

Batman's internal monologue, that of an obsessed, paranoid narcissist looking for the glorious death he feels he has earned, may paint the picture that he is owning Superman, but the actual representation of the fight is that of a crazy old man tilting at windmills.

Now, the embarrassingly bad TDKSA may paint Bruce as ultimately right (I read it twice a LONG time ago, something about Brainiac and Luthor controlling Earth?), but the intention of TDRK was to write the LAST Batman story, and that was a Batman consumed by his anger, paranoia and narcissism railing against a world that no longer needs him (rightly or wrongly) but didn't have the decency to kill him.

On Red Son, I have it, I've read it a few times but have never really understood why it is so fondly remembered. It was OK. Maybe I should revisit it, but on the other hand I've never been a big fan of Mark Millar's work.

[Vordan]

“No longer needs him”? That’s not really supported at all by TDKR. He’s the one who beats the Mutant Gang after all. He’s the one who keeps Gotham from descending into riots after the nuke while the rest of the country goes nuts. And of course he’s the one who finally starts to push Superman out of his lapdog position, indirectly sure, but he’s still the cause. TDKR is very much a validation that Batman is needed and always will be.

[Kuwagaton]

As pointed out, one of the weirdest things in the story is just the approximation of Batman himself. A guy sort of named Pete Ross and a childhood friend named Lana with red hair are on the line of the Elseworlds track, but then having an actual Russian Batman sort of crosses it where everything else was pretty clever.

he’s also a government stooge and that colored every future Batman/Superman interaction.

Honestly, my trade was lost to me before I ever got to Superman in DKR and the story itself hasn't gripped me enough to try again. But I always see this said and I don't get it, because it gives Miller too much credit and sets the impression that every segment where Superman isn't belittling Batman's efforts is a sign of character weakness. The point will always be that Superman is reluctant to hurt a normal guy who also proves to be a selfless resource in the never ending battle. Because he's not an X-Men, persecuted and against the wall, he can show considerable tolerance for a rightfully defensive attitude.