Scorsese explains why he thinks Marvel movies aren't cinema

[Jokerz79]

Oh for God sakes you can't judge all films on the same curve. It's like judging To Kill A Mockingbird and Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein the same way it doesn't work it's enough to say both are great films.

Gangster films, Musicals, Spectacle Films like Irwin Allen Films or the MCU, Comedies, Dramas, War Films, Cowboy Films are all Cinema and to debate otherwise shows a lack of knowledge of Directing, Writing, Filming, Lightning, Editing, Music, Sound, and all the other work that goes into making a film.

As for Directors coming out against the MCU well even Legends eventually can become out of touch old men wanting the kids off their lawn.

[Beaddle]

Oh for God sakes you can't judge all films on the same curve. It's like judging To Kill A Mockingbird and Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein the same way it doesn't work it's enough to say both are great films.

Gangster films, Musicals, Spectacle Films like Irwin Allen Films or the MCU, Comedies, Dramas, War Films, Cowboy Films are all Cinema and to debate otherwise shows a lack of knowledge of Directing, Writing, Filming, Lightning, Editing, Music, Sound, and all the other work that goes into making a film.

As for Directors coming out against the MCU well even Legends eventually can become out of touch old men wanting the kids off their lawn.

You can't judge movies on the same curve but you can definitely judge how well and thoughtful these movies are made. You can definitely tell a movie that was made by a director and a movie that was more cooperate driven. Look no further than MCU movies and Non Marvel movies or Star Wars PT and Star Warts ST.

Can you judge Endgame and Return of the King on the same curve? In many circumstances yes even if they are from different genres. one aspect would be how well the director know how to use CGI and Edit movies well that makes it look less noisy, more realistic looking and less messy with many characters.

[Jokerz79]

You can't judge movies on the same curve but you can definitely judge how well and thoughtful these movies are made. You can definitely tell a movie that was made by a director and a movie that was more cooperate driven. Look no further than MCU movies and Non Marvel movies or Star Wars PT and Star Warts ST.

Can you judge Endgame and Return of the King on the same curve? In many circumstances yes even if they are from different genres. one aspect would be how well the director know how to use CGI and Edit movies well that makes it look less noisy, more realistic looking and less messy with many characters.

I hate LOTR books and films so asking wrong person. The LOTR films are well made movies deserved their awards but I don't care for them.

The fact anyone would say the MCU aren't well made or thought out shows that person to be biased or doesn't know film making.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The fact anyone would say the MCU aren't well made or thought out shows that person to be biased or doesn't know film making.

I never said the MCU movies aren't well-made. I said that the movies are kind of rigid and standardized in terms of staging of action scenes, lighting and as Willem Dafoe said, they are overshot, with a lot of reshoots and other stuff.

On the higher level, it's probably not got the same values of cinema that the great movies do. The genre trappings of the superhero story don't allow for any larger point to be made. For instance, you can say that The Godfather and Goodfellas and Casino have something to say about "the American dream" of the mob and criminals as basically attracting hoods with the same promises that people have about the American Dream and opportunity. It's saying stuff about capitalism (that line in Godfather II, "we're bigger than US Steel").

The MCU movies thematically don't have any of that going anywhere. Sure you can say that it's kind of about 9/11, kind of about the war on terror, kind of about Snowden but it doesn't go deep into that the way Godfather and Goodfellas do. Or you know the way even some comics do...like for instance, Frank Miller's Daredevil Born Again does tackle similar themes and ideas, but no MCU movie, or any comic movie has come close to making a movie with that much depth.

Spectacle Films like Irwin Allen Films or the MCU

Spectacle films aren't really a genre and when people talk of "Hollywood Spectacle" they mean epic movies like Cleopatra, Fall of the Roman Empire, The Ten Commandments, or more recently, Gladiator.

I suppose you can compare Irwin Allen disaster movies to the MCU but the difference is that in Irwin Allen disaster movies, a lot of people die and generally stay dead. I mean compare the MCU to Star Wars. Take the OT, where you had fairly dark and interesting ideas. Or the PT, where Lucas basically asks you to identify with a mass-murdering guy who kills children and strangles his wife.

On the higher level of content and themes, the MCU aren't as deep as even George Lucas's stuff.

[Beaddle]

I hate LOTR books and films so asking wrong person. The LOTR films are well made movies deserved their awards but I don't care for them.

The fact anyone would say the MCU aren't well made or thought out shows that person to be biased or doesn't know film making.

It is not that mcu movies are not well made directly, it is that MCU movies are the lowest form of showing well made movies, obviously a person who made LOTR,a franchise that pushed the boundaries of fantasy and blockbuster technicology for instance could see MCU as not well made. mcu is the opposite of everything LOTR achieved in making blockbuster films a very important part of cinema. If you have not seen LOTR you must have seen some of the movies I have mentioned. Jaws, ET or Hugo.This scene from Hugo captures great amazing VFX, story, mystery, cinematography all in one moment. its astounding for a director who has 90% gangsta films.


If I was to mirror the scene to Endgame when Hulk explains time travel, Endgame does not come off as well made to Hugo. I see the the sharp contrast here. Scorsese has been called a bitter old white man for his marvel comments but his artistry does not lie. The Russos and MCU should learn from him instead of attacking him and speaking of the Russos, they should have just let it go or said something more intresting. Their response like Fiege was hollow.

https://www.cbr.com/joe-anthony-russ...rvel-avengers/

The say nobody onws cinema but many have shaped cinema that is earned a listen. Scorsese is one of the few.

[luprki]

I hate LOTR books and films so asking wrong person. The LOTR films are well made movies deserved their awards but I don't care for them.

The fact anyone would say the MCU aren't well made or thought out shows that person to be biased or doesn't know film making.

I actually agree with you on this one.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What's with the dragging down of Goodfellas from MCU fans?

There's this notion that Scorsese was the MCU-equivalent to the Old Hollywood pioneers and so on. If that's true then Scorsese's a hypocrite for slamming the MCU. Fortunately it's not true.

The only way that works is if during the '70s, Scorsese went "forget all this personal movies crap, let's go back to self-censorship, dudes getting hot girl they are entitled to at the end of the movie, bloodless violence and bad guys being punished at the end of the movie!". In comics' terms, Old Hollywood is like Will Eisner, Milton Caniff, Krazy Kat, EC Comics and stuff like that, while Scorsese would be Alan Moore or Gaiman, or Robert Crumb, or Justin Green, and other outsider comics' artists of that time.

Scorsese once said that Wes Anderson is "the next Martin Scorsese" (https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...anderson-0300/). So he obviously doesn't see the MCU as his successor or equivalent.

[Scott Taylor]

Oh for God sakes you can't judge all films on the same curve. It's like judging To Kill A Mockingbird and Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein the same way it doesn't work it's enough to say both are great films.

Gangster films, Musicals, Spectacle Films like Irwin Allen Films or the MCU, Comedies, Dramas, War Films, Cowboy Films are all Cinema and to debate otherwise shows a lack of knowledge of Directing, Writing, Filming, Lightning, Editing, Music, Sound, and all the other work that goes into making a film.

As for Directors coming out against the MCU well even Legends eventually can become out of touch old men wanting the kids off their lawn.

Disney is the king of wanting the kids off their lawn. But rather than whine about it, they actually have the capital to go buy the lawn, put a big wall around it, bribe the police to keep the kids well away and still have money and influence left to curry favor with the people who vote for "best lawn of the year."

In this thread people have journeyed back and forth between "Scorcese is the establishment" and "He's just an irrelevant old man" and it is hilarious. Sort of reminiscent of Ulysses Everett McGill in Oh Brother Where Art Thou:

Ulysses Everett McGill : I don't know Delmar. The blind are reputed to possess sensitivities compensating for their lack of sight, even to the point of developing paranormal psychic powers. Now, clearly seeing into the future would fall into neatly into that category; its not so surprising then that an organism deprived of its earthly vision...

Pete : He said we wouldn't get get it. He said we wouldn't get the treasure we seek on account of our ob-stac-les.

Ulysses Everett McGill : Well what the hell does he know, he's just an ignorant old man!!!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Disney is the king of wanting the kids off their lawn. But rather than whine about it, they actually have the capital to go buy the lawn, put a big wall around it, bribe the police to keep the kids well away and still have money and influence left to curry favor with the people who vote for "best lawn of the year."

They're actually already buying the lawn and erecting the wall.

https://www.slashfilm.com/justice-de...ning-theaters/

The Justice Department, under the administration of Trump (ol'pal ol'buddy of Ike Perlmutter, President of Marvel, and Rupert Murdoch, who has a seat at the Disney Board of Directors after the Fox purchase) is reversing the Paramount decree that broke up the studio system in 1947. And that article points out how Disney is already muscling small theatres, like extorting the most onerous deal with any theatre for The Last Jedi and who knows what else they're doing for the MCU stuff.

[Farealmer]

In this thread people have journeyed back and forth between "Scorcese is the establishment" and "He's just an irrelevant old man" and it is hilarious.

People in this thread have also compared Disney to chattel slave owners, implied being an MCU fan makes you race blind, and linking blockbusters to climate change. I find those less hilarious and more unnerving. As unlike just getting ruffled over Scorsese's statements and criticizing him, believing those things can cause someone to consider others as bad people for being on the other side of the debate.

[Mister Mets]

The writer Ken Lowery has a decent point on why Marvel films matter more than others.

My long-gestating theory about the health of the blockbuster movie industry is that the vast swath of the general public only has so many Care Points to distribute to movies. The MCU sucks up all the Care Points with a solidly B+ product that releases quarterly.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The writer Ken Lowery has a decent point on why Marvel films matter more than others.

That's astute. The MCU creates safe movies that are sure-sells, and the audience is conditioned that these movies are sure-buys.

[DT Winslow]

Wes Anderson isn’t the next Scorsese. He’s been a better director than Scorsese since the first Bottle Rocket. Scorsese can’t fill his boots.

[Kirby101]

"Hugo"? The movie Scorcese made as a ode to George Melies, the film maker whose movies where all spectacle with little or no storytelling and character development. That "Hugo"?
Maybe he should rethink his definition of what "cinema" is?

[Ozymandias]

"Hugo"?George Melies, the film maker whose movies where all spectacle with little or no storytelling and character development?

As opposed to what contemporary director of his?