Scorsese explains why he thinks Marvel movies aren't cinema

[XPac]

"Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth, "rip down all hate, " I screamed
Lies that life is black and white spoke from my skull, I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
-- Bob Dylan, My Back Pages

Gatekeeper used to mean stuff like gamergate i.e. a bunch of obnoxious fans trying to say some people i.e female critics and developers do not have a right to express an opinion on a medium because they haven't played so-and-so games or do not know such-and-such lore. The idea that there are "true fans" and "casual" fans don't have a right to form an opinion.

By the original definition, MCU fans are being gatekeeper. Scorsese offers an outside view on their stuff, in very mild terms. And in response fans say he's got no right to say that, unless he is totally immersed in comics' lore and so on. The MCU fans are gatekeeping as to what is the right and best opinion and acceptable means of criticism.



Well that's part of the problem that Scorsese is talking about. Someone on twitter pointed out the argument seems to be that Scorsese cannot have an opinion on the MCU based on the 1 or 2 movies he claims to have seen...he needs to have seen every single movie to judge. So in that respects it isn't cinema anymore. It's basically a kind of theme park where the individual films don't stand alone. The MCU movies are solid, consistent, and well put together but it's also quite samey i.e. in terms of humor, attitude to supporting cast, and overall plot beats. Scorsese said they are "sequels in name, remakes in spirit".

The MCU is the movie equivalent of the monthly comics. If you read Spider-Man now, and don't like the latest issues or the few you read and walk away no fan would make a fuss and gainsay that the reader in question is wrong to say he didn't like Spider-Man because it's not realistic to ask someone to read every Spider-Man run before making an informed opinion on the character.

I think the problem isn't that he's offering criticism so much as he's defining what is or isn't cinema.

He wouldn't get the same degree of backlash he's getting if he simply said the MCU were bad movies, rather than saying they aren't movies at all. The former is a matter of opinion, while the later is factually wrong. Him deciding what is or isn't a movie is where the gate keeping thing gets absurd.

If I don't happen like this months issue of Spider-Man or whatever, it doesn't stop being a comic book. It's still a comic book whether I like it or not. It is what is is independent of what I happen to think of it. At most it's just a comic book I don't happen to like.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He wouldn't get the same degree of backlash he's getting if he simply said the MCU were bad movies, rather than saying they aren't movies at all.

I doubt the former very much. I think if he said that they are bad movies, the reaction would be the same if not identical, maybe ironic. People would say, "Why can't he just admit that the Marvel movies aren't for him, why doesn't he shut up?" Few others would go, "Look the MCU isn't trying to be art you know, they are basically theme parks". I say that because I have seen similar defenses and responses when people say that they aren't good movies. They point to the box-office successes (which again isn't their success, it's the company's success).

Him saying the MCU isn't cinema is in fact sidestepping the issue of quality and taste to make a bigger point. Scorsese's response about the MCU not being cinema is intended by him to communicate a bigger point, to get people to think about "what cinema is/once-was/should-be". I mean think about the interesting questions and ideas we've been discussing. What is superhero stories/movies as a genre? What are its limitations and possibilities? How is superhero movies different as a genre from others? The truth is that the MCU have always had an air of pretension to them. Feige keeps touting that he's bringing these talented young directors like James Gunn, Taika Waititi and Ryan Coogler into the MCU. He apparently met Argentinean film festival darling Lucrecia Martel to do Black Widow and she backed out when she said that she wanted to do the action scenes.

The MCU haven't been content to, as Walter Sobchak put it, "staying in their lane". They are trying to be this big totalizing thing. So I don't know why people thought there wouldn't be blow-back when some guy asks them what exactly are they trying to do aside from making money. Because they clearly want to be seen as doing something.

[XPac]

I doubt the former very much. I think if he said that they are bad movies, the reaction would be the same if not identical, maybe ironic. People would say, "Why can't he just admit that the Marvel movies aren't for him, why doesn't he shut up?" Few others would go, "Look the MCU isn't trying to be art you know, they are basically theme parks". I say that because I have seen similar defenses and responses when people say that they aren't good movies. They point to the box-office successes (which again isn't their success, it's the company's success).

Him saying the MCU isn't cinema is in fact sidestepping the issue of quality and taste to make a bigger point. Scorsese's response about the MCU not being cinema is intended by him to communicate a bigger point, to get people to think about "what cinema is/once-was/should-be". I mean think about the interesting questions and ideas we've been discussing. What is superhero stories/movies as a genre? What are its limitations and possibilities? How is superhero movies different as a genre from others? The truth is that the MCU have always had an air of pretension to them. Feige keeps touting that he's bringing these talented young directors like James Gunn, Taika Waititi and Ryan Coogler into the MCU. He apparently met Argentinean film festival darling Lucrecia Martel to do Black Widow and she backed out when she said that she wanted to do the action scenes.

The MCU haven't been content to, as Walter Sobchak put it, "staying in their lane". They are trying to be this big totalizing thing. So I don't know why people thought there wouldn't be blow-back when some guy asks them what exactly are they trying to do aside from making money. Because they clearly want to be seen as doing something.

He'd get blowback no matter what... but by making a statement which is 100% factually wrong, he gurantees blowback even by people who might agree with him.

He's deciding that whether or not he likes a movie magically defines whether or not it's even a movie at all... and that's simply not how it works. Again, saying he doesn't like MCU is fine... he's not the first guy on the planet being critical of a popular movie and he won't be the last. That comes with the territory.

[Ozymandias]

Feige's been pretty good at quality control.

Feige initially reported to Isaac Perlmutter (who I've read was quite uneasy to deal with); in 2015 Perlmutter was taken out of the equation, so his work should've been affected one way or the other, but looking here, I don't see people liking them differently.

[Kirby101]

Feige initially reported to Isaac Perlmutter (who I've read was quite uneasy to deal with); in 2015 Perlmutter was taken out of the equation, so his work should've been affected one way or the other, but looking here, I don't see people liking them differently.

There are a lot of assumptions here. Did Perlmutter interfere? Was his vision different for the MCU? Did Feige finds a way to work with Perlmutter? And so on. Your your conclusion that his work should have been effected isn't warranted on that alone.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He'd get blowback no matter what...

Glad that we agree on this.

He's deciding that whether or not he likes a movie magically defines whether or not it's even a movie at all

He makes it clear that this is his opinion. He doesn't think that what the MCU does is cinema. And again this is an opinion a lot of people have expressed before.

Ethan Hawke pointed this out:
(https://www.indiewire.com/2018/08/et...es-1201997725/)
"Now we have the problem that they tell us Logan is a great movie. Well, it’s a great superhero movie. It still involves people in tights with metal coming out of their hands. It’s not Bresson. It’s not Bergman. But they talk about it like it is. I went to see Logan cause everyone was like, “This is a great movie” and I was like, “Really? No, this is a fine superhero movie.” There’s a difference but big business doesn’t think there’s a difference. Big business wants you to think that this is a great film because they wanna make money off of it."

When Ethan Hawke says it he comes off as an indie actor who has too many airs. And he goes after Logan a movie that is very much an outlier and James Mangold, a guy who hates superhero movies and the MCU, probably has a right to go, "Dude I'm on your side." (Mangold has come and supported Scorsese's pov). Scorsese though goes after the MCU movies. The reason people get in a huff when Scorsese says it is that everyone knows that he comes from a real place. He has seen more movies than arguably anybody else. He has championed underappreciated directors. Guys like Michael Powell who was living in a trailer park when Scorsese championed his reputation and helped restore his films and get it on DVD (and even record commentary tracks for them with Powell on the laserdiscs). Scorsese has also funded up and coming directors and gone to bat for them, including Alfonzo Gomez-Rejon, who is a Hispanic film-maker who Scorsese mentored and whose recent film The Current War needed his intervention to get final cut. Scorsese also makes a lot of different kinds of movies, and he isn't really arthouse or indie film-maker.

If Scorsese says the MCU isn't cinema, then maybe people do need to think and wonder what that means, since it comes from a guy who probably knows what cinema is more than anyone else, having lived preached and practiced it multiple times. That's why these comments got traction and affected people personally because it means a lot when a man of such respect and esteem says it.

I mean look in comics when Alan Moore talks smack about stuff, people take it seriously and with respect. Because again no one can say Alan Moore doesn't know his stuff, or doesn't know what he's talking about.

[jetengine]

People honestly don't take Alan Moore that seriously anymore. Dude just hates everything now, for somewhat legitimate reasons.

[XPac]

Glad that we agree on this.



He makes it clear that this is his opinion. He doesn't think that what the MCU does is cinema. And again this is an opinion a lot of people have expressed before.

Ethan Hawke pointed this out:
(https://www.indiewire.com/2018/08/et...es-1201997725/)
"Now we have the problem that they tell us Logan is a great movie. Well, it’s a great superhero movie. It still involves people in tights with metal coming out of their hands. It’s not Bresson. It’s not Bergman. But they talk about it like it is. I went to see Logan cause everyone was like, “This is a great movie” and I was like, “Really? No, this is a fine superhero movie.” There’s a difference but big business doesn’t think there’s a difference. Big business wants you to think that this is a great film because they wanna make money off of it."

When Ethan Hawke says it he comes off as an indie actor who has too many airs. And he goes after Logan a movie that is very much an outlier and James Mangold, a guy who hates superhero movies and the MCU, probably has a right to go, "Dude I'm on your side." (Mangold has come and supported Scorsese's pov). Scorsese though goes after the MCU movies. The reason people get in a huff when Scorsese says it is that everyone knows that he comes from a real place. He has seen more movies than arguably anybody else. He has championed underappreciated directors. Guys like Michael Powell who was living in a trailer park when Scorsese championed his reputation and helped restore his films and get it on DVD (and even record commentary tracks for them with Powell on the laserdiscs). Scorsese has also funded up and coming directors and gone to bat for them, including Alfonzo Gomez-Rejon, who is a Hispanic film-maker who Scorsese mentored and whose recent film The Current War needed his intervention to get final cut. Scorsese also makes a lot of different kinds of movies, and he isn't really arthouse or indie film-maker.

If Scorsese says the MCU isn't cinema, then maybe people do need to think and wonder what that means, since it comes from a guy who probably knows what cinema is more than anyone else, having lived preached and practiced it multiple times. That's why these comments got traction and affected people personally because it means a lot when a man of such respect and esteem says it.

I mean look in comics when Alan Moore talks smack about stuff, people take it seriously and with respect. Because again no one can say Alan Moore doesn't know his stuff, or doesn't know what he's talking about.

And if Alam Moore read a comic book he didn't like and decided that it wasn't a comic book, he'd be wrong too and he'd be called on it. That's simply not how it work, regardless of how respected they are and should be.

[Beaddle]

100% of successful movies of all genres in the entire history of cinema fit the same four act formula according to objective computer analysis. It is a tired and provably incorrect statement to accuse anyone of cynically using this formula when EVERYONE does.

I never said it was incorrect although Marvel is a special case. its more of a studio than a franchise.

There has always been 3 defences to MCU.

Its really popular
its the highest grossing film franchise
Rotten tomatoes scores.

However as we continue to see with the marvel and superhero backlash from Scorsese, Cameron or Coppela or others, this defence don't hold any weight and has all been proven many times to be masterminded by Disney and the media. Have you always noticed whenever a MCU film is released. there is this tagline of..its the best one yet. Then it becomes another flavour of the week mcu film after a few months? Zack Snyder may not be the best story teller but he was right when he said MCU movies are flavour of the week movies.


what scorsese and maybe older comic movie fans from the early 2000s are doing is forcing MCU to now address the content and film making process of MCU movies because all this people who had slammed marvel, (Mangold, Scorsese and his budddies) this is their issue. They Don't care about about RT, popularity or box office, their beef with marvel is the zero artistic standing of their films. this is the reason rotten tomatoes for example no longer has any value . Joker is 68% RT. Black Panther is the highest RT comic film. I read a screenrant article that said ant man is the weakest of the mcu movies, a theory I have heard from even mcu fans , some where even doubting a 3rd movie but the RT of the two antman movies equals the first and third Nolan batman films, a series that one director took time, effort to create with nothing but his own formula that has nothing to do with Tim Burton or Bruce Timm.

it is not cynical, its is more of a clear obviousness of what is going on with MCU with the Disney machine backing them up. Marvel is now been forced to be held accountable of their lazy or shall I zero artistic tributes as their films are indeed more of a product than legit cinema.This is what scorsese is saying, perhaps he just said things to brutally.

[Farealmer]

And if Alam Moore read a comic book he didn't like and decided that it wasn't a comic book, he'd be wrong too and he'd be called on it. That's simply not how it work, regardless of how respected they are and should be.

This. No person, no matter how talented or experienced, should have veto power over what is and isn't art.

Call it gatekeeping, elitism, or whatever, the term is less important than the act. It's the standard establishment vs the new kid. No different than every other time in history. A history that often unkindly looks back at elitists that tried to keep the new kid out.

[luprki]

I have to give it to Disney’s marketing team, they have turned an otherwise lame franchise into a pot of gold worth billions. This is what frustrates great filmmakers like Scorsese. Is he jealous, maybe. Does he have the right to be jealous, yes.

[Scott Taylor]

You can definitely make a case that Alan Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. But when someone utilizes a term like "cinema" and defines it a certain way to make an argument - thats a rhetorical technique, nothing more. Scorcese isn't claiming some new definition of cinema that he wants to have added to the Oxford-English Dictionary, he's simply using the word in a unique way in order to communicate and describe a concept.

Attacking his use of "cinema" is like doing a grammar or spelling attack on someone - its avoiding the point of his argument, intentionally or otherwise.

[Beaddle]

I have to give it to Disney’s marketing team, they have turned an otherwise lame franchise into a pot of gold worth billions. This is what frustrates great filmmakers like Scorsese. Is he jealous, maybe. Does he have the right to be jealous, yes.

Disney has a great marketing ploy, how many of their movies has the media called the greatest Comic movie of all time in recent memory that never holds any weight after a few months.

Civil War, Black Panther, Endgame even spiderman homecoming was called the greatest spiderman film of all time though from the trailer it looks liked a Disney channel TV film compared to the grand quality Blockbuster scale of Raimi, I still remember myself as a teen when I jeezed after I saw the first spiderman 2 trailer, the film did not disappoint either. there is nothing about spiderman homecoming that gave me that feel but somehow, it was called the greatest Spidey movie ever in the few weeks after release. that's marketing not objective cinema.

Once you start talking about screenplay, cinematography, acting, VFX, directing. MCU falls apart and I bet the few marvel films Scorsese has seen, it was obvious that marvel lacks all this things. Scorsese even said , he felt sorry for marvel actors that they are doing their best with limited material. Jennifer Aniston said something similar when she said its all about green screen with marvel, so marvel there is no drama or story or even any interesting VFX to attract people like scorsese or Aniston.

I mean why isn't Scorsese or Spielberg attacking Avatar with the formulaic writing? because Avatar made it up with stunning VFX and is James Cameron personal vision he brought to life, Avatar is not cooperate or studio manufactured like mcu movies. scorsese had to ask help from Cameron with Hugo. So in the end, it is all down to individual art not industrialised products which is what mcu is.

You also have to ask how did marvel get under Scorsese's radar this much that he needs to bash it 4 times in one month? the media suffocates us with mcu news coverage and its because Disney is powerful and can market their films so darm well. the hype machine is so High for the MCU, you can't escape it even if you claim to only look out for indie smaller films, which is scorsese's area.

I think it would be best for marvel to just do a small else world story than has nothing to do with the MCU.

[jetengine]

This threads a goldmine. First of all the MCU is chattel slavery now we're saying Zack "Your living in a fucking dreamworld" Snyder was right ?

Woof.

[Midvillian1322]

This threads a goldmine. First of all the MCU is chattel slavery now we're saying Zack "Your living in a fucking dreamworld" Snyder was right ?

Woof.

The dumbest part is they are misrepresenting Snyder. He loves the the MCU and has been qouted as saying he loves the Avengers movies and is there opening weekend for each one. Hes a fanboy, he just wanted people to be like him and love the MCU stuff but also be open to what he was doing.

Spielberg has said hes liked The Dark Knight and the the first Ironman but his favorite comicbook movie is Guardians of the Galaxy. But his opinion doesnt make Guardians better then the TDK. It's just what he liked.
“I love the Superman of Richard Donner, The Dark Knight, Christopher Nolan, and the first Iron Man, but [the] superhero film that impressed me most is one that does not take itself too seriously: Guardians of the Galaxy. When his projection was over, I left with the feeling of having seen something new in movies, without any cynicism or fear of being dark when needed." - Spielberg

Quentin Tarrentino is a huge MCU fan and did a MCu binge and watched every movie in preparation for Endgame.

None of this matters and someone trying to use a couple individual opinions to say something isnt Art is silly. It's like When Gene Simmons went on his Rap isnt music tirade. It's all BS and nust some older person mad becuase things arent the way they want it.