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  1. #601
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That doesn't make it a movie about death.
    It's a movie that deals with death. Most movies aren't "about death". Is that now part of the definition of cinema?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #602
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Well it wasn’t supposed to be...
    Duh...that’s the point. MCU movies are not built to deal seriously with a subject like this.

    In real life, when people are dying or thinking about death, they’re confronted with the roads not taken, choices and consequences of their life, the ultimate value of their efforts, if they measured up to the image they had of themselves and so on. All that stuff comes in when people think about death and in mature stories that deal with death. Citizen Kane and The Godfather are both movies that deal with that, alongside other themes.

    Superhero stories in general aren’t capable of doing that. I will say that Logan does deal with this. It has a mature attitude to death. But it’s a story where Logan loses his healing factor and finally experienced human decay. In other words it confirms that superhero stories essentially function as a denial of death. The minute Logan loses his powers only then can his story deal with something approaching human scale.

    In the case of the MCU, consequences are stuff that only happens when the plot wants it to and stops happening when the plot does not want it to. Tony Stark is an inveterate womaniser who still ends up “having it all”. The stuff with the shrapnel that potentially taxed him physically when he used the suit, it got solved with a new element in IM2 and then surgery removed it in the third movie and it’s a non issue by the end.

    Odin is an old man who did bad things and regrets stuff but he still ends up validated as a good guy by the end of Ragnarok. All Thor has to do is put down Odin’s poorly raised, tortured (and yes she was imprisoned in solitary confinement for millennia, that is torture) daughter who only ever followed daddy’s orders and that’s it. Sure Tony Stark dies in Endgame but it’s a classic beautiful death surrounded by family and loved ones and a lasting validation even if the movie right after it features him being revealed as a plagiarist. Logan at least is better since Logan dies heroically with no expectation of reward after all the c men are gone, acting to protect innocents and he gets buried in an anonymous grave whose final actions are known only to a few. That’s a more fitting and poignant and resonant portrayal of death.

    Irishman though is on a level even beyond this.

  3. #603

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    So you’re upset that MCU movies don’t tackle the subject that’s the main point of a film like Irishman, despite that not being the main point of MCU movies?

    They’re just obviously not for you. Doesn’t mean they don’t hold value for others.

  4. #604
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    I guess comedies aren't "cinema" either.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #605
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    So you’re upset that MCU movies don’t tackle the subject that’s the main point of a film like Irishman, despite that not being the main point of MCU movies?

    They’re just obviously not for you. Doesn’t mean they don’t hold value for others.
    I actually included Logan as a point of reference too, you know. Logan was an acknowledged influence on Endgame and it’s a movie with a serious attitude to death as well.

  6. #606
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Okay Godfellas is one of my favorite films but I don't get the praise Irishman is getting is good that's it. One they should had cast a young actor to play "young" Frank the CGI wasn't convincing and DeNiro moved like an old man also people younger than DeNiro acting like he was the younger one was weird. The story was a jumbled mess IMO because during the main narrative they'd jump around to give a greatest hits of mob events. I get Frank claimed to be involved in these events but the Columbo/Crazy Joe stuff felt out of left field during the Hoffa story.

    I love Scorsese but with this film it feels like an odd time to call out others.

  7. #607

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I actually included Logan as a point of reference too, you know. Logan was an acknowledged influence on Endgame and it’s a movie with a serious attitude to death as well.
    Logan was a movie all about the “end of an era” and “passing of the torch” and “new found hope with the young ones”. Logan’s death was so telegraphed you’d have to have been blind not to see it coming.

  8. #608

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I guess comedies aren't "cinema" either.
    Horror movies must be the best cinema, too. Chock full of death.

  9. #609
    Mighty Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Okay Godfellas is one of my favorite films but I don't get the praise Irishman is getting is good that's it. One they should had cast a young actor to play "young" Frank the CGI wasn't convincing and DeNiro moved like an old man also people younger than DeNiro acting like he was the younger one was weir
    I love Scorsese but with this film it feels like an odd time to call out others.
    I saw this coming in one form or another, After Scorsese's marvel rants, I knew some who loved the MCU were not going to like The Irishman. RevolutionaryJack was comparing the Irishman to MCU movies and how it deals with themes of death and ageing. How does that measure up to Marvel movies?
    d. The story was a jumbled mess IMO because during the main narrative they'd jump around to give a greatest hits of mob events. I get Frank claimed to be involved in these events but the Columbo/Crazy Joe stuff felt out of left field during the Hoffa story.
    I wonder how jombo of a mess the Irishman can be, when those who although loved Endgame, could not figure out how time travel works in the film, Irishman cannot be as messy as the Endgame script?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Logan was a movie all about the “end of an era” and “passing of the torch” and “new found hope with the young ones”. Logan’s death was so telegraphed you’d have to have been blind not to see it coming.
    I am surprised no one brought up Iron Man's death, like Wolverine, its was about the actor retiring, the end of era and all that stuff but Logan as a movie represent something for the genre that MCU are not, Logan's death will pack more punch. Its all about the tone and art of Logan. Mangold even said in 2017 Logan is meant to be a push back against mcu movies.
    Personally I will take Xavier's death over Logan and Tony but Xavier's death in the MCU would be impossible because marvel would never allow a serious storyline of dementia. the closest thing they had to it was Thor 2 and as usual, it was made into a joke, which sums up the lack of converging real human emotion as Scorsese said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I guess comedies aren't "cinema" either.
    Woody Allen is a comedian. Scorsese loves him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Horror movies must be the best cinema, too. Chock full of death.
    Psycho and Carrie are cinema classics.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-27-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  10. #610
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    So movies that don't deal with death as the ultimate finality aren't cinema. Got it.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffHanger2 View Post
    So movies that don't deal with death as the ultimate finality aren't cinema. Got it.
    Didn't you know? Hope, good, and all that other happy kid stuff is ultimately pointless and not for real artists.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Didn't you know? Hope, good, and all that other happy kid stuff is ultimately pointless and not for real artists.
    If it's not Scorsese or non-mcu superhero movies. It's not cinema. No happy endings for me-too real for that. #I'mreal#

  13. #613
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    Some people say MCU films are not cinema.

    Some people say Oscar-winning films are not cinema.

    Some people say Scorcese would have loved to direct Joker, which would definitely make it cinema.

    Some people believe Joker should win an Oscar, which would make it... not cinema?

    If you don’t like certain films that’s fine (but I am curious as to why you would spend so much time going on an Internet forum just to trash them), but perhaps don’t try to do some sort of impossible mental gymnastics to make your story fit.

  14. #614
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    The colours and tone of the film is wrong to handle ageing and death properly.
    What does that even mean? (Maybe that was the wrong part to reference, given it's meant to be the sweeter part of the bittersweet ending. Try Peter Quill's eulogy if you want the part directly dealing with it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    this is what kid friendly Disney films are about when they try to tackle serious issues. kind of reminds me of Pixar's UP when we see the colourful balloons fly , Good for pixar, bad for mcu.
    Yeah, Up is the last movie you want to invoke in this debate. Kinda funny that Up and Inside Out are the most colorful of the Pixar library and yet the most mature. Also funny how they know when to amp up the bright colors and when to tone them down (e.g. Russel taking about his family, Joy realizing her mistake in the Memory Dump, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    if you want the proper marvel take on aging and death, Read the death of wolverine comics and watch logan. that is the real marvel at its best.
    Read and seen both. Can't argue with Logan being well done, but Death of Wolverine was not the best of anything. Yeah, I'll say it, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 handled death far better then Death of Wolverine, namely in building up to it, getting the emotions right, and having it actually mean something in the context of the story. (Did like Logan's last moment, but the story did not earn that moment.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    this Disney makeover marvel is just restricted to pixar kinds but Scorsese would never attack Pixar because Pixar is not live action with human beings.
    Dunno, maybe Scorsese isn't worried about Pixar. Heck, for all I know, he knows that if he attacks Pixar, he'll get no mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Ant-Man, I don't know what he does in the movie, this is one franchise everyone agrees is the weakest of the MCU.
    Actually, I'd argue it's one of the better installments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Its not about the acting abilities, scorsese directly said so, its about the writing a of mcu, there is not much to do in the mcu because the plot of their films are not heavy, so the actors are limited. scoreses directly said this.
    Here is the Scorsese on actors in the MCU
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/martin-...atic-universe/

    "Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being."
    Yeah, that's the point I stopped taking Scorsese seriously; I have literally seen the MCU convey those experiences he claims are lacking. That's what their Guardians movies are built on, for one.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Usually this is not what I hear, The two Chris's are usually slammed for their acting skills especially Helmsworth and the recent Fat Thor gag is not going to help matters. RDJ was always about MCU not appreciating his acting talents. Is there any other actor who has made a comic character so iconic in the past 10 years than RDJ apart from Hugh Jackman? RDJ had to carry films with lukewarm scripts because Disney were throwing out the actual scripts for iron man movies because they were seen as too mature. that was marvel's loss and a total disrespect of the comics.
    Well, try listening to people who have actually seen the movies. All 3 Chris turn in excellent acting

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Ant-Man, I don't know what he does in the movie, this is one franchise everyone agrees is the weakest of the MCU. Its not about the acting abilities, scorsese directly said so, its about the writing a of mcu, there is not much to do in the mcu because the plot of their films are not heavy, so the actors are limited. scoreses directly said this.
    Here is the Scorsese on actors in the MCU
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/martin-...atic-universe/

    "Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being."
    Yeah, that's complete BS. I can think of countless scenes that have invoked serious emotion. I don't imagine that scorsese never looked past the trailers.

    And while yes, Ant-Man is the weakest franchise, it's still pretty damn good. That speaks to the quality of the MCU. Hell, they made shrinking bad ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Its just funny that everything Scorsese is saying about the acting circumstances in marvel films, marvel is at fault. Its not as if the actors can't act, its that they don't get to act much in mcu movies. the only marvel films were their any heavy acting were some of the x-men movies and earlier spiderman films.
    Yeah, no. Though I like how you clarify that only the MCU is not cinema

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqDD2kEKHhY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrQjWr8bKQw

    That's some fine acting right there

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