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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    To be honest, I am disappointed that so many people at Marvel are shown to be so thin skinned.

    When Scorsese was young, he had mentors talk smack about projects he did. John Cassavetes called one of his movies a "piece of s--t" and Scorsese said that Kazan often expressed disappointment about his stuff, and his film school teacher asked him why was he bothering making movies about low******s. Scorsese didn't throw hissy fits about it like Bob Iger did (which was really childish in his response and made him look like a fool), he took it in stride

    Saying the MCU aren't cinema, that they're theme parks, or that they don't take risks and so on, is fairly mild stuff. More extreme stuff has been said by the likes of Alan Moore about the entire superhero industry and about people who work in the genre and about fans of the genre.

    ...to be honest, I don't really think there's a single superhero movie that is a quote-unquote "great movie" not just MCU but across the field. Some movies come close and are very good whether it's Batman Returns, or Logan, or Raimi's first Spider-Man movie or Guardians of the Galaxy but overall no.

    Superheroes as a genre is quite different from anything that came before, any other genre and so on. In comics history, superheroes have swallowed and destroyed the genres of crime and horror comics that existed before, and which people have opposed to the superhero genre. So I don't know why people find it hard to accept that people who like crime movies or make crime movies or other genres would oppose superhero stuff.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    To be honest, I am disappointed that so many people at Marvel are shown to be so thin skinned.

    When Scorsese was young, he had mentors talk smack about projects he did. John Cassavetes called one of his movies a "piece of s--t" and Scorsese said that Kazan often expressed disappointment about his stuff, and his film school teacher asked him why was he bothering making movies about low******s. Scorsese didn't throw hissy fits about it like Bob Iger did (which was really childish in his response and made him look like a fool), he took it in stride

    Saying the MCU aren't cinema, that they're theme parks, or that they don't take risks and so on, is fairly mild stuff. More extreme stuff has been said by the likes of Alan Moore about the entire superhero industry and about people who work in the genre and about fans of the genre.

    ...to be honest, I don't really think there's a single superhero movie that is a quote-unquote "great movie" not just MCU but across the field. Some movies come close and are very good whether it's Batman Returns, or Logan, or Raimi's first Spider-Man movie or Guardians of the Galaxy but overall no.

    Superheroes as a genre is quite different from anything that came before, any other genre and so on. In comics history, superheroes have swallowed and destroyed the genres of crime and horror comics that existed before, and which people have opposed to the superhero genre. So I don't know why people find it hard to accept that people who like crime movies or make crime movies or other genres would oppose superhero stuff.
    1. Because sometimes the complaints are less about the MCU but rather the MCU is used as a easy target for someone's dislike of something else(Disney, CB Movies in general, blockbusters, heavy use of CGI, etc).

    2. The taking criticism thing is false equivalency because Scorsese is a single person so it's easier for him to manage his public reactions to criticism. The MCU is a whole franchise with multiple actors, directors, and what not all having varying degrees of stake in it and personalities. So it's easier to single out people in that vast group who had a bad reaction to the criticism.

  3. #183
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    I don’t see what’s the big deal about what Scorsese said. We all already know the MCU is only a product to make money. We all already know the MCU are two hour commercials to sell merchandise and setup the next two hour commercial. We all already know the MCU is not an artistic product, but an popcorn franchise for a cash grab.
    Last edited by luprki; 11-11-2019 at 11:09 AM.

  4. #184
    Fantastic Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    So, you might ask, what’s my problem? Why not just let superhero films and other franchise films be? The reason is simple. In many places around this country and around the world, franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen. It’s a perilous time in film exhibition, and there are fewer independent theaters than ever. The equation has flipped and streaming has become the primary delivery system. Still, I don’t know a single filmmaker who doesn’t want to design films for the big screen, to be projected before audiences in theaters.
    It sounds like a complain made from the filmmaker's perspective.

    As audience, I'm more concerned about the difficulty in finding good material, which has increased in the 21st century. But I don't blame any particular genre for that, I blame the industry. Now that computers make FX cheaper, a lot more movies are bringing the technical side to the spotlight. Obviously, content oriented movies can be just as bad, but the abundance of production made it easier to find good films, up to the late 90's.

  5. #185
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    I don’t see what’s the big deal about what Scorsese said. We all already know the MCU is only a product to make money. We all already know the MCU are two hour commercials to sell merchandise and setup the next two hour commercial. We all already know the MCU is not an artistic product, but an popcorn franchise for a cash grab.
    Arn't all movies commercial products to make money?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #186
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    1. Because sometimes the complaints are less about the MCU but rather the MCU is used as a easy target for someone's dislike of something else(Disney, CB Movies in general, blockbusters, heavy use of CGI, etc).
    Doesn't that come with the territory though. The MCU is the biggest franchise in movie history. Eventually people are gonna want to bring you down to earth.

    So it's easier to single out people in that vast group who had a bad reaction to the criticism.
    Well I think the CEO of Disney, Bob Iger should be a little mature, and certainly for a guy who's in charge of a family friendly company shouldn't throw around words like "bitch" in public. At the end of the day this is pretty mild criticism, very politely stated, and not at all with any mean spirit or intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    We all already know the MCU is not an artistic product, but an popcorn franchise for a cash grab.
    Right. I mean the amazing thing is that the MCU people like Bob Iger seem to think they are Cassavetes or David Lean or something.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Doesn't that come with the territory though. The MCU is the biggest franchise in movie history. Eventually people are gonna want to bring you down to earth.
    Why does it need to be brought "down to earth"?

    Well I think the CEO of Disney, Bob Iger should be a little mature, and certainly for a guy who's in charge of a family friendly company shouldn't throw around words like "bitch" in public. At the end of the day this is pretty mild criticism, very politely stated, and not at all with any mean spirit or intention.
    I am not sure of the incident in question so I cannot speculate as to the motives of those involved.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 11-11-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  8. #188
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    I don’t see what’s the big deal about what Scorsese said. We all already know the MCU is only a product to make money. We all already know the MCU are two hour commercials to sell merchandise and setup the next two hour commercial. We all already know the MCU is not an artistic product, but an popcorn franchise for a cash grab.
    None of us know that. In fact it is only the opinion of the very small minority you are part of.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #189
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Arn't all movies commercial products to make money?
    All movies want to make money, but some put emphasis on artistic valve and some only exist to make money.

  10. #190
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    None of us know that. In fact it is only the opinion of the very small minority you are part of.
    None of us know that- Are you kiddy?

  11. #191
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelgirl View Post
    Classically trained Jazz artists know how to sing. Pop music is autotune garbage.

    Millennial critics are the ones Martin Scorsese should attack. How did they let MCU get very far? Some of them had to be high or drunk when they watch MCU movies.
    Great point

  12. #192
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    Honestly it's Scorsese who's looking thin-skinned after all he's admitted he doesn't watch the movies. He just comes across as jealous at the success of the MCU and kinda petty. Iger and others have handled him with kid-gloves and shown him respect even after he put down hundreds of ppl. You'd probably expect a little more class from someone who made their bones with gangster flicks...then again...maybe not.

  13. #193
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    None of us know that- Are you kiddy?
    Not really, it's only your point that is hyperbolic. To try and pretend that the Marvel movies are just soulless commercial products simply because you don't care for them is just putting your head in the sand...and that's coming from someone who's only cared for a few of the films.

  14. #194
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Arn't all movies commercial products to make money?
    Yes they are, the irishman is a product that Scorsese will make money off. The rare billionaires in Hollywood Spielberg and Lucas to name a few became billionaires from selling products.Anything fiction that we pay to be entertained from, Books, Films, Music is a product.

    What we see in 2019, star wars and marvel in particular is just a different beast. the product factor has greatly overriden the artistic factor. There should be balance at least or sometimes, the product value is just a strong reward where the primary reward is to celebrate art. Marvel movies are not like that. marvel is 100% product kid friendly advertising for the next action figure set pieces.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-11-2019 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Arn't all movies commercial products to make money?
    It depends on what the primary objective is. Filmmakers like Scorsese and Coppola and Lucas had a vision they thought said something or was relevant and captivating and convinced producers they could monetize it to get it off the ground. Disney and WB have IP’s that they are farming and trying to put in an input output cycle using popular tropes. It’s pretty clear a lot of their movies don’t start with an artistic agenda. Ant-Man was always a popular Avengers cast member so they wanted him, it didn’t matter that they had to jettison the first guys vision for it to be more cohesive with the brand. They just wanted the IP.

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