Scorsese explains why he thinks Marvel movies aren't cinema

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

He never said anything like that.

Why do anyone cares so much about Scorsese’s opinion? I don’t get why his opinion is taken so personal.

Because it's Scorsese and when he says it he has credibility with a lot of people in the film industry and you could tell by the way it really upset Gunn and how RDJ didn't want to be critical of him. I mean look at this thread, you have people trying to attack his films and say they aren't diverse or whatever and it just comes off really bad. Anyways, he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before by others.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Scorsese's do. He even uses the same actors. And never uses women or minorities. His movies are absolutely formulaic.

This complaint is about being butthurt people won't pay for his movies in theaters. Now he somehow wants to force theaters to only show his movie so people will pay for them. If that's not his end, he has no point or argument. Just griping.

Wtf are you talking about? The only two tonally similar Scorsese films are Goodfellas and Casino and it's very much by design. You think Mean Streets is anything like either of those? Or the Departed? Even the Irishman isn't anything like those films. Those are just the gangster films which wouldn't even be 25% of his catalogue (and if you count Gangs of New York that's noting resembling any of those movies). Not even close. He never uses women? Some of the most iconic roles in his films are woman. Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Cathy Moriarte in Raging Bull (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Sharon Stone in Casino (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Cate Blanchett in Aviator (won Best Supporting Actress), Margot Robbie in The Wolf of Wall Street. I guess you could say his films are light on minorities. Still they are there. Samuel L. Jackson had a small role in Goodfellas albeit not the most flattering. Johnny Barnes as Sugar Ray Robinson beating the ever loving piss out of the lead in Raging Bull. But I'll give you that one, most of his films relate back to 2nd Wave Immigrants (Italian, Jewish, Irish). Even then not super waspy

[Marvelgirl]

I don't have a problem with what he is saying. Number #1 its a generational thing. And also this type of debate has been going on for ages. Look I am not film expert. But the way I look at Marvel films is they are pop music. There is a lot of bad pop music. But some of its good. This argument is literally like some classically trained musician or jazz artist saying whatever current pop music is garbage. Is he or she wrong? Well no. But in a way yes. Cause within the garbage some stuff is good. I don't know who determines its good. The fans of whatever do at whatever time. But then it gets dissected by history. Even then there isn't any real consensus. Art is all opinion. But we all have opinions.

Classically trained Jazz artists know how to sing. Pop music is autotune garbage.

Millennial critics are the ones Martin Scorsese should attack. How did they let MCU get very far? Some of them had to be high or drunk when they watch MCU movies.

[Midvillian1322]

Classically trained Jazz artists know how to sing. Pop music is autotune garbage.

Millennial critics are the ones Martin Scorsese should attack. How did they let MCU get very far? Some of them had to be high or drunk when they watch MCU movies.

Because they enjoy the movies. Along with the vast Majority of the movie Theater going audience. Not complicated at all. That's all there is to it

[Mister Mets]

Producer Keith Calder snarked at a comment by Kevin Feige on how to understand everything in future MCU films, fans will need to watch the Disney+ shows.

A defining aspect of cinema is that you won’t understand the plot unless you watched a TV show.

Jeet Heer has an interesting point on how Marvel films are different from the cinema we're used to.

It's perhaps not a defining aspect of cinema as traditionally understood but the fact that MCU requires deep immersive knowledge does make it narratively interesting (true also of the comics). It's a new type of narrative, one critics have a hard time grappling with.

Perhaps post-Scorsese, we can movie the debate forward by stipulating that Marvel Cinematic Universe movies are not cinema as traditionally understood and ask "well, what are they then?"

Here's a stab at a definition: MCU shows & films make up a multi-platform open-ended multi-authored roman fleuve whose appeal comes from immersion in the density of world-building.

Now, I personally have never liked the open-ended soap opera aspect of Marvel comics (and later MCU films), preferring to skim them for surface pleasure to deep immersion. But a proper critical account needs to explain the appeal to the non-skimmers, the deep fans.

Who will be the Manny Farber of Marvel comics & MCU films -- the critic who can burrow deep into the form and explain its unique properties and distinctive pleasures? I'm hoping @douglaswolk does that in his forthcoming book.

[Kirby101]

I doubt it will be that important, probably a few internet summaries to read if needed. If Disney+ is a necessity, then the billions from international audiences could be lost. You can't ask everyone in China and Europe to subscribe just to understand the MCU. As immersive as the MCU is. All my none comic reading family and friends can follow it fine. They don't care about the Easter Eggs.
Fiege is just shilling here.

[Theleviathan]

Wtf are you talking about? The only two tonally similar Scorsese films are Goodfellas and Casino and it's very much by design. You think Mean Streets is anything like either of those? Or the Departed? Even the Irishman isn't anything like those films. Those are just the gangster films which wouldn't even be 25% of his catalogue (and if you count Gangs of New York that's noting resembling any of those movies). Not even close. He never uses women? Some of the most iconic roles in his films are woman. Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Cathy Moriarte in Raging Bull (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Sharon Stone in Casino (Best Supporting Actress nomination), Cate Blanchett in Aviator (won Best Supporting Actress), Margot Robbie in The Wolf of Wall Street. I guess you could say his films are light on minorities. Still they are there. Samuel L. Jackson had a small role in Goodfellas albeit not the most flattering. Johnny Barnes as Sugar Ray Robinson beating the ever loving piss out of the lead in Raging Bull. But I'll give you that one, most of his films relate back to 2nd Wave Immigrants (Italian, Jewish, Irish). Even then not super waspy

I absolutely think his movies are all tonally the same partly because of this. Here's the thing....he does these kinds of movies REALLY well. He shouldn't have to apologize for that...but neither should Marvel. The reason this comes up is because Scorsese is hardly a good barometer for the creation of diverse film-making. That he's backed up in this criticism by James Cameron and Speilberg in criticizing blockbuster, formula style, CGI spectacles is hilariously ironic.

Art is about appreciating what you find exciting and beautiful. Personally, I've never seen a painting I would pay two cents for as "art". I could care less about going to an art museum. But architecture? Man I find that stuff fascinating. I don't get to take my opinions and declare anything else "not art". Art is so subjective that trying to denounce something you don't like as "not art" is an automatic fail as an argument.

If Scorsese would like to watch the films and critique them, well then he has a point. But openly admitting you didn't watch them and then blasting your hate is asinine. Doing so with healthy doses of hypocrisy doesn't help.

[Beaddle]

KNIGHT OF THE LAKE;4678450]Because it's Scorsese and when he says it he has credibility with a lot of people in the film industry and you could tell by the way it really upset[/B]

Why is Gunn so upset? he arguably made two of the worst MCU movies . Maybe if Gunn had made GOTG more like star trek or Interstellar, scorsese won't speak on anything.

Gunn and how RDJ didn't want to be critical of him. I mean look at this thread, you have people trying to attack his films and say they aren't diverse or whatever and it just comes off really bad. Anyways, he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before by others.[

This is nothing new. these are likely the same people that said it is is sexist to say captain marvel is not a great movie, or racist to say black panther is not a great film. see them using the same thing with scorsese is not worth a response from me anymore.

[Midvillian1322]

I doubt it will be that important, probably a few internet summaries to read if needed. If Disney+ is a necessity, then the billions from international audiences could be lost. You can't ask everyone in China and Europe to subscribe just to understand the MCU. As immersive as the MCU is. All my none comic reading family and friends can follow it fine. They don't care about the Easter Eggs.
Fiege is just shilling here.

Let's be honest if you separate most the MCU except things like Infinty war/ Endgame they stand on they're own. Maybe if you havent seen them your gonna a be like who's that? Once or twice but the movie itself will tell you what you need to know. It's one of the MCU strengths you dont have to see every movie to knows what going on. The TV shows will be the same, someone might be like" who's that Muslim kid with Hard on for Captain Marvel?" Or " Who's that Female Hawkeye? " But the movie will tell you everything you need to know about them. Yea you'll miss out on some of the character building that people who watched the shows got but you will be able to watch and enjoy the movies just fine without it. Whatever happens in WandaVision that lead to Dr strange 2 I bet you will be summarized in Dr Strange. They just want to sell Disney+ Subscriptions and ensure people the shows will be a part of the movies. But like it's been for the past 10 years you wont have had to see everything prior to understand what's going on except in rare occasions like Avnegrs 3/4 which are bascialy one movie.

[WebLurker]

Kinda think Scorsese's thoughts and the validity of them (or lack thereof, as some would say) has been exhausted. Not sure what else there is to say.

[Powerboy]

He is stroking the card, race should not be mentioned. Bob Iger tried to pull this off. marvel has like 25 movies, bob iger chose to make it black panther. come on, you know how our lame press likes to think and start trouble when there is none. you are right scorsese did not give specifics about marvel movies, he generalised all of them. there is no need to try and remove black panther addressing what he is saying. this people have an agenda in their plans to try and destroy him. I do find this a better black led movie than black panther that scorsese directed in the 80s.

Bad is more iconic than Black Panther. More influential musically than thriller. I am now seeing other posters now saying he does not use women or minorities. if I was to look at it from this point, it does not have anything to do with MCU not been art to Scorsese. Completely two different topics.lol.

I seriously doubt that Disney or the MCU has a plan to destroy Scorsese. Boseman is just responding to criticism.

Jennifer Aniston and Jody Foster said things very similar. "Birdman" was partly a parody of why people love action superhero movies or at least why the writer thinks they do. The Oscars even had a diatribe about the MCU movies one year put into the mouths of some actors who made their careers on similar movies.

It may irk them a bit but, as long as the movies keep selling, they aren't going to change and they certainly aren't worried that the general public is going to drastically change their movie-going habits based on the opinions of people who are miffed to begin with because people aren't interested in their movies nearly as much as they are interested in the MCU movies.

Mind you, I get it when some of them say their issue is that ten movies they consider of quality could be made with the budget of one MCU movie. The problem is this only works when you just say to people: We aren't going to give you what you want but only what we feel you should want. As long as there's a choice, these sorts of movies will always run over everything else. There was a time when pressure/ special interest groups and censorship might have stopped this and also that the special effects didn't exist back then to make it look believable. But, in today's world, it won't be stopped when most people want it.

If they were really just action movies with no real plot or talent, it would be different but as long as money and talent is put into them, they'll keep destroying everything else.

[Marvelgirl]

DCEU was not allowed to get very far. Batman v Superman was the breaking point. There were many chances to stop MCU. Iron Man 2, Thor the Dark World, Avengers.

[Hulkout42]

Scorsese: These Marvel movies are all the same !
Also Scorsese : Hey wanna see my 500th Gangster movie !

You do raise a valid point, I mean the Irishman is basically a story about a mob hitman. So really why should he criticize if he is guilty of the same thing?

[Beaddle]

https://www.businessinsider.com/loga...-movies-2017-3
The director of 'Logan' delivered a brutal critique of big-budget superhero movies

This was 2.5 years before Scorsese opened his mouth.

What I find strange is many other directors who have made Marvel movies also slammed the Disney marvel studios ways of doing things and it is not as if they were talking out of their asses. I remember Tim Miller of Deadpool saying they wanted to flip the tired superhero formula, Bryan Singer got irritated with people trying to link DOFP to MCU movies. There are people from the Sam Raimi era, William Dafoe and Kirsten Dusnt, who criticised the later spiderman films imcluding tom Holland's Spiderman.

DC directors, Zack Snyder did criticise MCU movies calling them flavour of the week movies. Nolan even warned people about MCU movies in 2012. When he said their tone is not just right for superman or when he criticised their post credit scenes, saying it makes movies less real.

This stuff has been building for years. Scrosese just bursted the bubble by making people now stop and listen.

[Mister Mets]

You do raise a valid point, I mean the Irishman is basically a story about a mob hitman. So really why should he criticize if he is guilty of the same thing?

But he wouldn't be really guilty of the same thing.

He's obviously quite good at making mob films, but that's not the majority of his filmography.