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  1. #346
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    While Disney cares about making money, it is notable how good the MCU films have been. None of them have been rated rotten on Rotten Tomatoes, which is a better record than the DCEU, Sony or Fox. And it's probably one reason the movies make so much money. Feige's been pretty good at quality control.

    You could make the case this is the result of Feige running the MCU more like a TV show with an unlimited production budget than a series of movies.
    Any metric can be exploited and the MCU just so happens to break that system. Yeah, no MCU film has a rotten score, including Iron Man 2 and Thor 2...These are indefensibly bad films.

    Yes, the RT system overwhelmingly favours MCU films, really for variety of reasons, but the most predominate among them is the shared universe factor. If you watch Red Letter Media's review of Captain Marvel, Rich says that Captain Marvel is a mediocre film and does not recommend it, but Mike says you should because it's part of the MCU. This has actually been a trend for reviewing these films since the very beginning, with some reviewers noting the post-credits scene in Incredible Hulk as the most interesting part of the film.

    MCU films do get extra 'points' for simply being part of that shared universe and since the you simply have to 'like' a movie to give it a positive score on RT, that's really all you need.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 11-14-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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  2. #347
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    I have to give it to Disney’s marketing team, they have turned an otherwise lame franchise into a pot of gold worth billions. This is what frustrates great filmmakers like Scorsese. Is he jealous, maybe. Does he have the right to be jealous, yes.
    I think what frustrates them is that the MCU style are the types of movies the majority of the public wants. But it's always been that way. If PBS was airing a Shakespeare play at the same time an episode of Baywatch was on, which is going to get better ratings? I'm not saying the MCU is either. It's somewhere between.

    I would also say that the first Iron-Man movie is critical. It was good and also extremely popular. It gave an great first impression for what became the MCU and first impressions are very important.

    MoS, for all its weaknesses, dealt with themes about human nature, exactly what the public didn't want. Bad first impression for a lot of people. I've heard so many times people saying things like, "The people making the DC movies have no clue what movie-goers want" as if it's obvious what they want.

    So I don't think it's "The Disney/ MCU PR machine". The very nature of the MCU movies is what draws people which, as I said, I think is really what irritates a lot of people like Scorsese.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  3. #348
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Any metric can be exploited and the MCU just so happens to break that system. Yeah, no MCU film has a rotten score, including Iron Man 2 and Thor 2...These are indefensibly bad films.

    Yes, the RT system overwhelmingly favours MCU films, really for variety of reasons, but the most predominate among them is the shared universe factor. If you watch Red Letter Media's review of Captain Marvel, Rich says that Captain Marvel is a mediocre film and does not recommend it, but Mike says you should because it's part of the MCU. This has actually been a trend for reviewing these films since the very beginning, with some reviewers noting the post-credits scene in that film as the most interesting part of the film.

    MCU films do get extra 'points' for simply being part of that shared universe and since the you simply have to 'like' a movie to give it a positive score on RT, that's really all you need.
    And that raises the issue of whether this is cinema or in fact something else. If the individual films can’t standalone and one cannot form an opinion until one sees every movie and the value is some scene after the credits then this isn’t really the same rules other movies are playing by.

    Scorsese said that this is a new art form and says it’s like a theme park and part of it can be glimpsed by the fact that there’s always some distraction or another apart from the movie at the center.

    And that’s different. Forrest Gump, a cookie cutter Oscar movie didn’t end with a post credit scene that became the most important part of it. Tarantino’s Pulp fiction didn’t end with a post credits scene about Marcellus Wallace bringing John travolta back from the dead.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Any metric can be exploited and the MCU just so happens to break that system. Yeah, no MCU film has a rotten score, including Iron Man 2 and Thor 2...These are indefensibly bad films.

    Yes, the RT system overwhelmingly favours MCU films, really for variety of reasons, but the most predominate among them is the shared universe factor. If you watch Red Letter Media's review of Captain Marvel, Rich says that Captain Marvel is a mediocre film and does not recommend it, but Mike says you should because it's part of the MCU. This has actually been a trend for reviewing these films since the very beginning, with some reviewers noting the post-credits scene in Incredible Hulk as the most interesting part of the film.

    MCU films do get extra 'points' for simply being part of that shared universe and since the you simply have to 'like' a movie to give it a positive score on RT, that's really all you need.
    Thats pretty much a conspiracy theory on par with "Disney pay RT".

    Every Marvel movie is at worst a competent sci/fantasy movie. No more no less, but because their not getting 1/10s people get angry.

  5. #350
    Mighty Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I think what frustrates them is that the MCU style are the types of movies the majority of the public wants. But it's always been that way. If PBS was airing a Shakespeare play at the same time an episode of Baywatch was on, which is going to get better ratings? I'm not saying the MCU is either. It's somewhere between.

    I would also say that the first Iron-Man movie is critical. It was good and also extremely popular. It gave an great first impression for what became the MCU and first impressions are very important.

    MoS, for all its weaknesses, dealt with themes about human nature, exactly what the public didn't want. Bad first impression for a lot of people. I've heard so many times people saying things like, "The people making the DC movies have no clue what movie-goers want" as if it's obvious what they want.

    So I don't think it's "The Disney/ MCU PR machine". The very nature of the MCU movies is what draws people which, as I said, I think is really what irritates a lot of people like Scorsese.
    I have mixed feelings of the first iron man movie. I disliked the screenplay for the predictability. the story was too straightforward. However, it was a nice introduction to a character no one had heard much about played by an actor RDJ, who was supposed to be washed up with a salary of $500000.

    It would have been interesting to see how the iron man sequels would have played out had Disney not bought marvel and marvel itself didn't become so driven with their MCU
    crossover.

    A part of me is disappointed with audiences, but again scorsese hit the nail when he said its a generation thing. I never expected audiences to be so attracted to crossover movies, that are less artistic driven and more of the same.

    Even if Scorsese didn't like comic movies, he never said anything about the genre until now.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-14-2019 at 03:42 PM.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I
    A part of me is disappointed with audiences, but again scorsese hit the nail when he said its a generation thing. I never expected audiences to be so attracted to crossover movies, that are less artistic driven and more of the same.
    .
    The general audience have never cared about artistry. The fact that you think they do is why your getting angry. For every Scorsese theres a hundred westerns or comedies with samey plots.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    You can definitely make a case that Alan Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. But when someone utilizes a term like "cinema" and defines it a certain way to make an argument - thats a rhetorical technique, nothing more. Scorcese isn't claiming some new definition of cinema that he wants to have added to the Oxford-English Dictionary, he's simply using the word in a unique way in order to communicate and describe a concept.

    Attacking his use of "cinema" is like doing a grammar or spelling attack on someone - its avoiding the point of his argument, intentionally or otherwise.
    He also didn't say the MCU should be banned. But that didn't stop that link from being made here. This thread has long since evolved past just what he said. It's now more about what people /think/ he said. And considering the statements on both ends of the debate I am not sure any of us really know. But then it's already been pointed out this was always less about Scorsese and more a continuation of previous MCU discussions.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    This threads a goldmine. First of all the MCU is chattel slavery now we're saying Zack "Your living in a fucking dreamworld" Snyder was right ?

    Woof.
    Honestly it seems that most threads that’s topic involves criticism of the MCU inevitably turns into a mess. I’ve just learned to stay away from it and not contribute to the discussion. The MCU seems to be the one franchise that brings out quite a lot passionate debates whether you’re a detractor or a defender. Things tend to get heated, and threads get derailed by repetitive back and forth between two sides that will never agree with each other until either people get bored and stop replying to the thread, or a mod closes the thread after pages and pages of the redundant discussion going nowhere.

    It’s kind of cyclical in a way.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 11-14-2019 at 09:37 PM.
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  9. #354
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    I'm always confused on how people link stuff back to Disney aswell. I mean Marvel Studios makes these movies . According to Feigie Disneys never even told him he cant make a R rated film, he just hasnt seen the need yet. Now do I think they will let him put a hard R movie in the MCU? No but I dont think they will stop movies like Deadpool or the Adult Hulu Cartoons about Modok/Howard the duck/Hit Monkey from being made. Just got to separate them.


    There are only two times I recall disney stepping in. Firing James Gunn (and then letting Feigie hire him back after the Fox deal) and Getting rid of Marvel Studios Committee and making Feige the King Pin of the MCU. Which according to The Russos and Gunn was a good thing. Feige believed in the Filmmakers visions and basicaly wrote them a blank check while the commitee didnt even wanna pay to have RDJ in Civil War.

  10. #355
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    I'm always confused on how people link stuff back to Disney aswell.
    Disney is the one doing the block-booking which makes it harder for theaters to allow screenings for smaller films. They were the ones who gave Feige a free hand. The MCU profits because of Disney.

    I mean Marvel Studios makes these movies . According to Feigie Disneys never even told him he cant make a R rated film, he just hasnt seen the need yet.
    According to Shane Black, when he made Iron Man 3, the first Disney IM movie, he was told that he can't have Tony drink alcohol even if it was a big part of the character that he's a drunk. So the idea that Disney hasn't made suggestions and so on is a total myth, or it's some spin Feige is giving to make his overlords look good. For all we know, there's even more stuff going on behind the scenes than they let on. Disney is a famously secretive company and they are good at keeping secrets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    This thread has long since evolved past just what he said.
    The strength of this thread or any thread is always determined by the number of posters making general vague complaints about the thread rather than doing their best in participating in the discussion and being on-topic. The fewer the better. Anyone off-topic and rude, can be complained and reported of course. But trying to make a to-do about the topic as if it shouldn't be discussed just equates every poster in the same boat.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The strength of this thread or any thread is always determined by the number of posters making general vague complaints about the thread rather than doing their best in participating in the discussion and being on-topic. The fewer the better. Anyone off-topic and rude, can be complained and reported of course. But trying to make a to-do about the topic as if it shouldn't be discussed just equates every poster in the same boat.
    I am not sure what you are trying to say? Is this a specific complaint to me or a general observation?

  12. #357
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Disney is the one doing the block-booking which makes it harder for theaters to allow screenings for smaller films. They were the ones who gave Feige a free hand. The MCU profits because of Disney.



    According to Shane Black, when he made Iron Man 3, the first Disney IM movie, he was told that he can't have Tony drink alcohol even if it was a big part of the character that he's a drunk. So the idea that Disney hasn't made suggestions and so on is a total myth, or it's some spin Feige is giving to make his overlords look good. For all we know, there's even more stuff going on behind the scenes than they let on. Disney is a famously secretive company and they are good at keeping secrets.



    The strength of this thread or any thread is always determined by the number of posters making general vague complaints about the thread rather than doing their best in participating in the discussion and being on-topic. The fewer the better. Anyone off-topic and rude, can be complained and reported of course. But trying to make a to-do about the topic as if it shouldn't be discussed just equates every poster in the same boat.
    I'm cool with the talk about MCU and other franchises block scheduling and pushing smaller movies out. that a valid point that this thread should be about. Instead it turned into a MCU hate thread and how Disney are slave masters.

    Did shane Black talk about it again? Cause I know when the mvoie came out he did an interview where he bascialy said the Demon in a bottle wouldn't fly but he also agreed with it. And I dont recall him ever saying Disney. Also he agreed with not going that route because if you do Demon in a Bottle the whole movie has to be about that doesnt really work with the Mandarin story he wanted to tell. I do recall him saying he was forced the change Killian to a guy because girl toys dont sell.

    Disney is a company that wants to make money I'm not defending them but people make these conspiracy about what Disney did to the Marvel movies and what they won't let them do. Disney does what the audience says they want by spending their money on it. And Feige has a great track record so I doubt they micro manage him. They trust him so much they are bringing him over to star Wars. If I had to guess why I'd say its because Alan Horns thinka Feige knows what the Audience likes. Hes yet to make a movie for Marvel studios that didnt do well financially or recieved any major level of Dislike from the general audience. Hulk was the closest thing to a flop. If it was a simple formula Disney and Marvel have found they would repeat it with they're other movies and other studios would copy it. Disney has movies that do bad critically and financially. So doesn't make sense they know a secret formula to trick people into buying tickets and liking a movie but only use it with the MCU.

    Instead of just accepting the General audience really like these movies. They have to make conspiracy theories on how Disney is influencing all this fake love. A certain poster said the Cultural phenomenon that Black Panther became was faked by Disney... Doesnt make any logical sense.

    Anyway to Bookend it on topic. There is an issue with Tentpole franchises leaving no room for smaller movies and Original movies. I mean we still get them but in much smaller numbers. The way we take in Media is changing. People dont look down on televsion(Where you can do alot more in depth chatacter development), or streaming apps anymore. With how much it costs to go to movies these days I understand why some people rather only spend money on huge big spectacle movies like Aquaman as opposed to seomthing like the Irishman. You can watch that movie at home and most people wont feel like they're missing out. I think Scorsese is old fashioned and just doesnt see it that way. Cinema to him is a very specific thing, that needs to be watched in a specific way.

  13. #358
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    I'm cool with the talk about MCU and other franchises block scheduling and pushing smaller movies out. that a valid point that this thread should be about. Instead it turned into a MCU hate thread and how Disney are slave masters.
    By some posters. And not others. You don't have to use the evidence of some to dismiss the topic altogether. There will always be posters with extreme views and attitudes for any topic.

    Disney is a company that wants to make money I'm not defending them but people make these conspiracy about what Disney did to the Marvel movies and what they won't let them do. Disney does what the audience says they want by spending their money on it.
    And what Disney does is subtly shape and alter audience perceptions so that they keep wanting the same old thing. All corporations especially long-running ones do that, so it's not a conspiracy but you can clearly see what they're doing.

    So doesn't make sense they know a secret formula to trick people into buying tickets and liking a movie but only use it with the MCU.
    I said before, I don't think what the MCU does is easy. I don't think just about anyone could do what they do. It takes effort, skill, and hard work to make that work, alongside a bit of luck as well. But stuff like that doesn't have anything to do with questioning the ultimate value of these films which is what Scorsese is doing.

    Ed Wood worked hard to make his movies too you know.

  14. #359
    Mighty Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Thats pretty much a conspiracy theory on par with "Disney pay RT".

    Every Marvel movie is at worst a competent sci/fantasy movie. No more no less, but because their not getting 1/10s people get angry.
    Disney does not pay RT, it just never made any sense for critics to keep giving many superhero movies good reviews because they are lighthearted and funny. this is the core difference between the mcu era and the post batman and Robin era of comic films.


    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The general audience have never cared about artistry. The fact that you think they do is why your getting angry..
    Jaws, ET, Star Wars. has Scorsese ever had a flop? I am sure his movies makes the budget back.

    For every Scorsese theres a hundred westerns or comedies with samey plots
    Could be true, except westerns are not shoved down out throats or overhyped in the public. I still stand by what I said that some of scorsese's anger comes from all the bizzare attention mcu films gets.

  15. #360
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Jaws, ET, Star Wars. has Scorsese ever had a flop? I am sure his movies makes the budget back.
    In blue, yes. He absolutely has.

    In green, that you are sure does not change that what is in blue absolutely has happened.

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