CBR list on female heroes stronger than Diana

[kjn]

As to PG, I do not think she has respect for Diana, or at least not enough. I have never seen her shown any respect. Pg thinks she is the biggest bossom, the biggest guns and strongest (fe)male. She gives no respect to her superior.

First, I think your thinking here is far too focused on hierarchical thinking.

Second, a lot depends on the writers, and I've found that even writers who are able to write a single female character well, often breaks down when they have to write several female characters interacting. All too many can only write stereotypical one-up-manship.

But that's why I think character relations should be judged by the best examples and the best writers. Look at how Gail Simone wrote Kara and Diana in WW vol 3 #41, especially after the mind control was broken. Or Amando Conner in the short one-shot in WW #600.

[Gaelforce]

Let's keep the personal commentary out of things, please.

Discuss the topic, not the people posting or their supposed motivations.

[WonderLight789]

I kinda saw the ending as Diana memorizing PG's combat techniques and anticipating her moves.

That is why i think that fight showed them as peers in terms of power, while showing Diana as the better fighter.

[achilles]

That is why i think that fight showed them as peers in terms of power, while showing Diana as the better fighter.

Sure. I would think that was fairly well established there. Mostly though, it was just a nice, fun little story that handled that relationship rather well IMO. Neither one was written terribly out of character, and it was fun.

[achilles]

First, I think your thinking here is far too focused on hierarchical thinking.

Second, a lot depends on the writers, and I've found that even writers who are able to write a single female character well, often breaks down when they have to write several female characters interacting. All too many can only write stereotypical one-up-manship.

But that's why I think character relations should be judged by the best examples and the best writers. Look at how Gail Simone wrote Kara and Diana in WW vol 3 #41, especially after the mind control was broken. Or Amando Conner in the short one-shot in WW #600.

Put very well IMO.

[Phoenixx9]

First, I think your thinking here is far too focused on hierarchical thinking.

Second, a lot depends on the writers, and I've found that even writers who are able to write a single female character well, often breaks down when they have to write several female characters interacting. All too many can only write stereotypical one-up-manship.

But that's why I think character relations should be judged by the best examples and the best writers. Look at how Gail Simone wrote Kara and Diana in WW vol 3 #41, especially after the mind control was broken. Or Amando Conner in the short one-shot in WW #600.

No I am not. I am stating my opinion just as we all are supposed to be free to do on here. You disagree. Well, I disagree with that.

Put very well IMO.

Not at all in any way IMO.

[kjn]

No I am not. I am stating my opinion just as we all are supposed to be free to do on here. You disagree. Well, I disagree with that.

Oh, I get that you disagree. But let me explain what I mean with hierarchical thinking, because you're not alone in that here.

The hierarchical (or one might say quantitative) approach to superhero story quality is all about feats and being stronger/faster/smarter/whatever than the rest of the roster. If the hero doesn't fly, the story isn't good. If the hero shows weakness, the story isn't good.

Now, this is a superhero story, so some degree of superheroics are to be expected. But the feats of strength and powers can not and should not be the only metric. I liked that Gail Simone had Power Girl beating around Wonder Woman, because it meant that Wonder Woman had to pick up one of the things that are unique to her and differentiates her from most other DC heroes, and Simone structured her story around that. Flying bricks are a dime a dozen at DC; what Simone did was that she differentiated Diana from the other flying bricks through her fighting skills.

That said Diana has lots more powers and abilities than flying, speed, and super strength, and having them in play makes for more varied stories and as good creative exercises. I want many more stories where her unity with beasts or empathy comes into play.

[Phoenixx9]

I like Wonder Woman for everything that makes her Wonder Woman, not just her "special equipment" or fighting prowess.

Too many want to reduce Wonder Woman to just her "equipment" and fighting skills. They usually state that, "XXX is stronger, but Wonder Woman has her magic items and is the better fighter!". But that is just another way of not giving the Amazing Amazon her due.

[BiteTheBullet]

I like Wonder Woman for everything that makes her Wonder Woman, not just her "special equipment" or fighting prowess.

Too many want to reduce Wonder Woman to just her "equipment" and fighting skills. They usually state that, "XXX is stronger, but Wonder Woman has her magic items and is the better fighter!". But that is just another way of not giving the Amazing Amazon her due.

It is not us giving her her due, it is the editors, writers, etc. that don't give Wondy her due in the comics and on the Silver Screen. It is all lip service for the most part.

[SiegePerilous02]

Oh, I get that you disagree. But let me explain what I mean with hierarchical thinking, because you're not alone in that here.

The hierarchical (or one might say quantitative) approach to superhero story quality is all about feats and being stronger/faster/smarter/whatever than the rest of the roster. If the hero doesn't fly, the story isn't good. If the hero shows weakness, the story isn't good.

Now, this is a superhero story, so some degree of superheroics are to be expected. But the feats of strength and powers can not and should not be the only metric. I liked that Gail Simone had Power Girl beating around Wonder Woman, because it meant that Wonder Woman had to pick up one of the things that are unique to her and differentiates her from most other DC heroes, and Simone structured her story around that. Flying bricks are a dime a dozen at DC; what Simone did was that she differentiated Diana from the other flying bricks through her fighting skills.

That said Diana has lots more powers and abilities than flying, speed, and super strength, and having them in play makes for more varied stories and as good creative exercises. I want many more stories where her unity with beasts or empathy comes into play.

While I agree that superheroics and feats aren't the be all/end all for superhero fiction, a big part of why people read these things is to see larger than life characters do fantastical things. They are a wish fulfillment fantasy, and Wonder Woman is known as one of the strongest and fastest superheroes in their pantheon. People want to see DC put their money where their mouth is with her more often. I think the pitchforks were out waaaaay too early in the Wilson run as far as power was concerned, but now that it is finished I think it's fair to say we had a whole year or so where she didn't do anything noteworthy power-wise and people are just growing impatient. A good WW run should be firing on all cylinders over the run. it should not be mindless slugfests with OTT superpowers all the time, but it's not good to swing it too far in the other direction either.

The hero losing receiving automatic criticism no matter what can be a bad thing, but there are instances where the hero is weak or challenged or outright loses in a way that doesn't quite make sense for their character or what the franchise is known for.

I like Wonder Woman for everything that makes her Wonder Woman, not just her "special equipment" or fighting prowess.

Too many want to reduce Wonder Woman to just her "equipment" and fighting skills. They usually state that, "XXX is stronger, but Wonder Woman has her magic items and is the better fighter!". But that is just another way of not giving the Amazing Amazon her due.

That's usually the stance I take when comparing her to Superman and Supergirl, but it's with the understanding that the strength difference between her and them isn't very large. Her placement in the hierarchy may be open for debate, but it can not be argued she's in the top tier (like Top 3-5 depending, out of a whole lot of superheroes) even taking her equipment into consideration.

But they don't really write her on that level consistently as of late.

[Phoenixx9]

It is not us giving her her due, it is the editors, writers, etc. that don't give Wondy her due in the comics and on the Silver Screen. It is all lip service for the most part.

Well, it is really both. Yes, the writers and editors etc that do not understand the character, but also us when we do not defend the position that Diana is not just a great fighter, but she has the super-strengrh to stand up to anyone. No unity is no unity, no matter where it starts.

[DochaDocha]

That's usually the stance I take when comparing her to Superman and Supergirl, but it's with the understanding that the strength difference between her and them isn't very large. Her placement in the hierarchy may be open for debate, but it can not be argued she's in the top tier (like Top 3-5 depending, out of a whole lot of superheroes) even taking her equipment into consideration.

But they don't really write her on that level consistently as of late.

Yeah, slightly less raw power, but better armaments and skills. I mean, it's not they could say she's got the best weapons, fighting abilities, AND power and not expect fan backlash.

But it's not like all fans and creators have the same vision for exactly how powerful WW should be. Some fans don't like the idea of bullets bouncing off her face. Other fans argue that the fact that she would otherwise have to use her bracelets to block bullets would necessarily drop her down a tier from the other flying bricks. In my book WW definitely flies, but some creators have decided they don't like that aesthetic. I don't think Patty Jenkins and (certainly not) Zack Snyder should have the final say on whether WW can fly, but I also wouldn't argue that their decision to keep her mostly earthbound isn't totally out of left field, either.

I think once you go beyond a certain point, such as having characters who can pull planets off their orbits, you're going to get a lot of disagreement on how powerful exactly these characters should be.

[achilles]

Yeah, slightly less raw power, but better armaments and skills. I mean, it's not they could say she's got the best weapons, fighting abilities, AND power and not expect fan backlash.

But it's not like all fans and creators have the same vision for exactly how powerful WW should be. Some fans don't like the idea of bullets bouncing off her face. Other fans argue that the fact that she would otherwise have to use her bracelets to block bullets would necessarily drop her down a tier from the other flying bricks. In my book WW definitely flies, but some creators have decided they don't like that aesthetic. I don't think Patty Jenkins and (certainly not) Zack Snyder should have the final say on whether WW can fly, but I also wouldn't argue that their decision to keep her mostly earthbound isn't totally out of left field, either.

I think once you go beyond a certain point, such as having characters who can pull planets off their orbits, you're going to get a lot of disagreement on how powerful exactly these characters should be.

Actually, about that part about big screen Diana...I don't recall if she was shown clearly flying or not, anyone know?

My thoughts about the issue of making Diana best at everything; strongest, most powerful, best fighter, wisest? Consider Godzilla. And Ghidorah. Who is more powerful? Well, the basic plot for mostly all of their screen fights is that Ghidorah kicks Godzilla's butt until the big G gets his inevitable power up to beat Ghidorah at the end. Or, Godzilla needs help from other monsters to win. But...is isn't Ghidorah who is "King of the Monsters", and Godzilla always does manage to pull off the win. It's an acknowledgment that having the hero...just blitz over everything and everyone because they are so flawless...actually makes for a pretty boring story, and a pretty boring character. Even when you know who's going to win, it's a pretty good idea to make the hero have to struggle a bit to at least make you think she might be in trouble.

I think most people would be a bit bored by that. It's why OP characters are always a bit harder to write, and why Superman, (and other Kryptonians), were given silly nonsensical weaknesses like Kryptonite or red suns. Probably also why they went with the bracelets and bullets thing for Diana; it made her more interesting to give readers at least a bit of reason to be afraid for her with the understanding that she wasn't bullet proof, and that she needed skill. Not to mention its a cool visual.

[kjn]

Actually, about that part about big screen Diana...I don't recall if she was shown clearly flying or not, anyone know?

I'd say she was floating in the air after blasting Ares, and might have been flying in the end shot (though that can be interpreted as only a mighty jump). But in both cases it's open to interpretation.

Personally, I'm not bothered if she flies or not in the movie. There is precedent both ways. Would be nice, but not something I will base my judgment of the movie on.

My thoughts about the issue of making Diana best at everything; strongest, most powerful, best fighter, wisest? Consider Godzilla. And Ghidorah. Who is more powerful? Well, the basic plot for mostly all of their screen fights is that Ghidorah kicks Godzilla's butt until the big G gets his inevitable power up to beat Ghidorah at the end. Or, Godzilla needs help from other monsters to win. But...is isn't Ghidorah who is "King of the Monsters", and Godzilla always does manage to pull off the win. It's an acknowledgment that having the hero...just blitz over everything and everyone because they are so flawless...actually makes for a pretty boring story, and a pretty boring character. Even when you know who's going to win, it's a pretty good idea to make the hero have to struggle a bit to at least make you think she might be in trouble.

Yup. Having the hero hitting bottom and digging in to win is one of the classic movie tropes, and arguably overused. At least, it should be used with care. I think Wonder Woman structured those pieces very well, and made them more than the standard last-grit stuff. First, in the No Man's Land scene in that she gets pinned down, but in the process gave Steve's gang the opening they needed to give Diana the opening she needed. (Mutual rescue can be really powerful if done right, see also why the Spiderman runaway train scene is a classic.) The other was that in her fight against Ares her level-up was predicated on that she had been fighting for the wrong reasons for most of the battle.

I think most people would be a bit bored by that. It's why OP characters are always a bit harder to write, and why Superman, (and other Kryptonians), were given silly nonsensical weaknesses like Kryptonite or red suns. Probably also why they went with the bracelets and bullets thing for Diana; it made her more interesting to give readers at least a bit of reason to be afraid for her with the understanding that she wasn't bullet proof, and that she needed skill. Not to mention its a cool visual.

I have no idea why Marston included bullets and bracelets. I'm not sure he really thought about it on that level (and the superheroes in the 40s were a lot lower-powered). If I had to guess, he simply wanted some use of the bracelets and thought up a snazzy name.

[achilles]

I'd say she was floating in the air after blasting Ares, and might have been flying in the end shot (though that can be interpreted as only a mighty jump). But in both cases it's open to interpretation.

Personally, I'm not bothered if she flies or not in the movie. There is precedent both ways. Would be nice, but not something I will base my judgment of the movie on.



Yup. Having the hero hitting bottom and digging in to win is one of the classic movie tropes, and arguably overused. At least, it should be used with care. I think Wonder Woman structured those pieces very well, and made them more than the standard last-grit stuff. First, in the No Man's Land scene in that she gets pinned down, but in the process gave Steve's gang the opening they needed to give Diana the opening she needed. (Mutual rescue can be really powerful if done right, see also why the Spiderman runaway train scene is a classic.) The other was that in her fight against Ares her level-up was predicated on that she had been fighting for the wrong reasons for most of the battle.



I have no idea why Marston included bullets and bracelets. I'm not sure he really thought about it on that level (and the superheroes in the 40s were a lot lower-powered). If I had to guess, he simply wanted some use of the bracelets and thought up a snazzy name.

It was my understanding that the bracelets were for the bondage thing, but you have to admit it's a great visual and gimmick. And completely unique, (apart from her own supporting characters). I did sort of think she was floating at the least in that scene, but I wasn't sure. I did love the No Man's Land scene, it was epic.