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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Tom King's Batman is just the worst, most bloated run the character has ever endured. It's a complete mess that is both overthought and underwritten.
    I cannot imagine a better description for this run, myself. Well said

  2. #92
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I don't care about Bruce cheating, cause he 100% would. He'd be an absolute idiot not to, and he is not an idiot. He's the Batman.

    I just think this is so poorly executed and underwritten. Whatever it is King is going for with the dialogue thing he's used on this title, my god it doesn't work.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I don't care about Bruce cheating, cause he 100% would. He'd be an absolute idiot not to, and he is not an idiot. He's the Batman.

    I just think this is so poorly executed and underwritten. Whatever it is King is going for with the dialogue thing he's used on this title, my god it doesn't work.
    He's going for "epic poem" in the style of, like, the Illiad.

    I agree that City of Bane and most of the run post-50 has been underwhelming!

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    He said he wanted to do the new Batman and Robin which is a whole different game than The Dark Knight. In other words, he thinks his BatCat will be capable of outselling the primary Batman title, will create a new and aggressive fanbase that didn't exist before by drawing in orginal readers (people who have never bought or read comics before, or haven't since finishing puberty), and create a situation and relationships that cannot be erased when the reboot happens that is also capable of carrying over into other media to the extent of carrying the entire animated range and showing that it's viable.

    It's a bold goal and well beyond wanting to be Millerverse which is loved by people in the industry and fanboys, but not something that can draw in new and rabidly devoted readers who cheerfully boosted the sales of other books like the two Batman and Robin series did.
    I think it's more that he's aiming to do a title that works both in-continuity but is also standalone enough to work as its own TPB... in the way that the Batman & Robin portion of Morrison's run is more enduring than, say, Batman RIP or Batman Inc.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I think it's more that he's aiming to do a title that works both in-continuity but is also standalone enough to work as its own TPB... in the way that the Batman & Robin portion of Morrison's run is more enduring than, say, Batman RIP or Batman Inc.
    I love Grant Morrison's Batman run. Batman and Robin was especially fantastic.

  6. #96
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    Well King once again jobs Bane and instead of a pure alpha male fight that is long and bloody we get a truncated version which is unsatisfactory to say the least. It seems that Flashpoint Batman is the one who holds all the strings and is the final foe to be overcome. The grim and gritty version of Batman's father being opposed to the crusade of Batman storyline is increasingly looking like a fan fic and I almost expect the revelation of it turning out to be the Bat-Mite in disguise to be slipped in by King to further troll the readers. This is just turning out to be a repeat of I am Bane where he builds him up only for him to fold up in a anticlimatory fashion with the only difference being Flashpoint Batman ready to step in for him. The heck was the point of the whole thing if it was this easy to liberate the city from Bane?

  7. #97
    Spectacular Member Schumiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    He's going for "epic poem" in the style of, like, the Illiad.

    I agree that City of Bane and most of the run post-50 has been underwhelming!

    I have an obsessive fondness for the Iliad (was reading it at age 8, and read it so many times by now) so had to just say nothing King does or writes comes anywhere near the style or quality of the Iliad. just nope. Doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence. Maybe that is what he aspires to do, as he has very high aspirations apparently, but nope. If he thinks he is writing a modern epic poem with this, he may need to check what an epic poem is really like... His inability to write proper dialogues between characters alone disqualifies him...

    I mean, if your main couple's main thing is calling each other "Bat/Cat" over and over, and your main villain is running around screaming "I am Bane" half the time to the point where even Batman was pretty much saying "yeah yeah, you are Bane, we get it" in this issue, you are NOT writing something epic. I am guessing his "I am Bane" is supposoed to be King's version of "Hulk smash" for the character where years from now people will still remember that phrase and associate it with the character but doesn't work (or he just thought, hey, people love "I am Groot" so will make my version of it, who knows at this point)...
    Last edited by Schumiac; 11-09-2019 at 01:45 AM.

  8. #98
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiac View Post
    I mean, if your main couple's main thing is calling each other "Bat/Cat" over and over, and your main villain is running around screaming "I am Bane" half the time to the point where even Batman was pretty much saying "yeah yeah, you are Bane, we get it" in this issue, you are NOT writing something epic. I am guessing his "I am Bane" is supposoed to be King's version of "Hulk smash" for the character where years from now people will still remember that phrase and associate it with the character but doesn't work (or he just thought, hey, people love "I am Groot" so will make my version of it, who knows at this point)...
    I thought Bane's equivalent was "I will break you, Batman!"

  9. #99
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    He's going for "epic poem" in the style of, like, the Illiad.

    I agree that City of Bane and most of the run post-50 has been underwhelming!
    I think at best he might try to equal the Claremont run of the X-Men, but the Iliad is in a totally different league.

    P.S. I'm new so cheers to everybody.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 11-09-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    He's going for "epic poem" in the style of, like, the Illiad.

    I agree that City of Bane and most of the run post-50 has been underwhelming!
    I would have never thought of it this way, I like it; however, King lacks the Homeric skill to truly convey his story. The biggest flaw with King's run is the repetitive dialogue. For the love of the gods, we get it, we get their internal state because you already said it, there is no reason to continually repeat it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiac View Post
    I have an obsessive fondness for the Iliad (was reading it at age 8, and read it so many times by now) so had to just say nothing King does or writes comes anywhere near the style or quality of the Iliad. just nope. Doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence. Maybe that is what he aspires to do, as he has very high aspirations apparently, but nope. If he thinks he is writing a modern epic poem with this, he may need to check what an epic poem is really like... His inability to write proper dialogues between characters alone disqualifies him...

    I mean, if your main couple's main thing is calling each other "Bat/Cat" over and over, and your main villain is running around screaming "I am Bane" half the time to the point where even Batman was pretty much saying "yeah yeah, you are Bane, we get it" in this issue, you are NOT writing something epic. I am guessing his "I am Bane" is supposoed to be King's version of "Hulk smash" for the character where years from now people will still remember that phrase and associate it with the character but doesn't work (or he just thought, hey, people love "I am Groot" so will make my version of it, who knows at this point)...
    Yeah this is my biggest gripe, no doubt King is a master of the craft but he seems to excel in small runs.

    I get after Omega Men and Vision his hype level was stratospheric; but I wish DC gave him a shorter run.

    I think 25 issues would have been a tight hyper focused story.

    Omega Men, Vision, and now Mr. Miracle can and probably will be considered modern masterpieces, but he needs some constraint.

  11. #101
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I don't care about Bruce cheating, cause he 100% would. He'd be an absolute idiot not to, and he is not an idiot. He's the Batman.

    I just think this is so poorly executed and underwritten. Whatever it is King is going for with the dialogue thing he's used on this title, my god it doesn't work.
    Yeah, Bruce never struck me as a guy above cheating to win a fight. King just has no idea how to properly write Batman. It's like someone gave him a page of notes and he winged it for 85 issues and some annuals. It actually hurts knowing this guy got given unlimited chances to continue a run and every other creator gets cut short the minute sales dip.

  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, Bruce never struck me as a guy above cheating to win a fight. King just has no idea how to properly write Batman. It's like someone gave him a page of notes and he winged it for 85 issues and some annuals. It actually hurts knowing this guy got given unlimited chances to continue a run and every other creator gets cut short the minute sales dip.
    Talk about failing upwards and now his eyeing The Watchmen.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiac View Post
    I have an obsessive fondness for the Iliad (was reading it at age 8, and read it so many times by now) so had to just say nothing King does or writes comes anywhere near the style or quality of the Iliad. just nope. Doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence. Maybe that is what he aspires to do, as he has very high aspirations apparently, but nope. If he thinks he is writing a modern epic poem with this, he may need to check what an epic poem is really like... His inability to write proper dialogues between characters alone disqualifies him...

    I mean, if your main couple's main thing is calling each other "Bat/Cat" over and over, and your main villain is running around screaming "I am Bane" half the time to the point where even Batman was pretty much saying "yeah yeah, you are Bane, we get it" in this issue, you are NOT writing something epic. I am guessing his "I am Bane" is supposoed to be King's version of "Hulk smash" for the character where years from now people will still remember that phrase and associate it with the character but doesn't work (or he just thought, hey, people love "I am Groot" so will make my version of it, who knows at this point)...
    hahaha well take it easy. He can't be blamed for my comparison, I just say the Illiad as a standard for what an epic poem looks like as a genre... I don't know that he's thinking of it like that, and it wasn't a comparison in terms of quality.

    I think on some level he is thinking of his overall run as a "love poem."

    My point is that King is writing a rhythm in the style of poetry or literature more than in the style of pulp detective fiction. Another way to look at it is almost like an illustrated children's book, like Brown Bear Brown Bear or something. the repetition isn't an accident on his part with "Bat / Cat / boat / street" it's obviously a choice to do something deliberately as an overall approach.

    Whether he's succeeding at what he is intending to do is ... subjective! Like I said, I have been underwhelmed post-50 but I am also kind of like, the jury is still out. It depends on how it wraps up. But even King's best work, like The Visions or Sheriff of Babylon or Miracle Man, didn't have especially incredible endings and all had some lingering vagueness.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I would have never thought of it this way, I like it; however, King lacks the Homeric skill to truly convey his story. The biggest flaw with King's run is the repetitive dialogue. For the love of the gods, we get it, we get their internal state because you already said it, there is no reason to continually repeat it.
    .
    It's definitely a choice! I think he thinks of "Bat Cat boat street" as being something like the chorus if this run were told as a ballad.

    The amount of times the run has quoted poems or music lyrics or kids books makes me think we're supposed to invite the comparison.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think at best he might try to equal the Claremont run of the X-Men, but the Iliad is in a totally different league.

    P.S. I'm new so cheers to everybody.
    I didn't mean King's run is like the Illiad in terms of quality just as a reference for an epic poem... it reminds me a little bit of a novel called Sharp Teeth, which is a weird book that I won't try to describe but it's also written almost like song lyrics to a long ballad.

    King's Batman is very opposite Claremont's X-Men stylistically, which was incredibly dense with text. King's is so bare and minimalist that it's simplicity can sometimes read as being dumb or lazy, but I don't think it is, for all its faults, either of those things.

    Claremont's X-Men remind me of the similar era Batman comics by Denny O'Neil and especially Marv Wolfman which were similarly text and narrator heavy. They are just as pretentious as King's run is, in the sense that they are pretending at a certain style and applying it to superhero comic storytelling.

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