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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    Morrison does revisit those old GA themes with a bit of a modern sensibility but he’s never dogmatic about it, it’s all a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation. He didn’t race bend Steve just to meet a diversity quota, and I think a dwarf just wouldn’t be as a effective as a PUA, I don’t believe “ableism” factored into it. WW:Earth-1 is also not particularly woke in how it handles body-positivity
    He said outright in an interview that he race bent Steve for diversity and racism is brought up or at least alluded to twice in chapter 1.

    Morrison was tryi g to be woke. He just wasn't very good at it.

  2. #17
    Spectacular Member VonHammersmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He said outright in an interview that he race bent Steve for diversity and racism is brought up or at least alluded to twice in chapter 1.

    Morrison was tryi g to be woke. He just wasn't very good at it.
    He didn’t do it *just* for diversity’s sake, he also did it because black Americans have a history of being bound in chains and a very different attitude towards that. I distinctly recall him saying that or something to that effect

    This may come as a surprise but one can talk about these subjects without adhering religiously to woke principles, it’s not necessarily a failed attempt at being “woke”

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    I think here is where we need the actual definition.

    Woke \ ˈwōk \ - Aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

    Wonder Woman: Earth One meets that criteria.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    He didn’t do it *just* for diversity’s sake, he also did it because black Americans have a history of being bound in chains and a very different attitude towards that. I distinctly recall him saying that or something to that effect

    This may come as a surprise but one can talk about these subjects without adhering religiously to woke principles, it’s not necessarily a failed attempt at being “woke”
    What exactly do you think woke means here?

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I think here is where we need the actual definition.

    Woke \ ˈwōk \ - Aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

    Wonder Woman: Earth One meets that criteria.
    I think Earth One is aware of some of these issues. At worst I don't think it explores them as fully as it could, it needs more space than one shot graphic novels.

    But as with many big name WW projects, it tends to get a more mixed reaction than some claim. You'd think everyone hated it just by reactions on places like this, but I don't think that's the case.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    The trouble with the "wokeness" of Morrison's Earth One is two-fold.

    The first is that it is largely superficial. Steve Trevor is made a black man, but the only thing that results in is some comments from him about not being trusting of the government (while he is a fighter pilot!) and that cringey scene with Diana and a dog's collar. Likewise Morrison brings up trans women, but only in the context of levering criticism against Diana and the Amazons, and the person bringing that up also turns up to be a pawn of Doctor Psycho's. He also brings up body positivity and body shaming—but it's the Amazons who do it!

    The second is who the "wokeness" is aimed at. Every single example above takes aim not at Man's World, but at Diana and the Amazons. It's not an honest re-examination of Marston's Golden Age work, or a revisit of it which re-imagines Themyscira based on 70 years of advances in sociological theory, but instead it takes a 70-year-old idealistic vision and mocks it.

    It is false and dishonest wokeness.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Likewise Morrison brings up trans women, but only in the context of levering criticism against Diana and the Amazons, and the person bringing that up also turns up to be a pawn of Doctor Psycho's. He also brings up body positivity and body shaming—but it's the Amazons who do it!

    The second is who the "wokeness" is aimed at. Every single example above takes aim not at Man's World, but at Diana and the Amazons. It's not an honest re-examination of Marston's Golden Age work, or a revisit of it which re-imagines Themyscira based on 70 years of advances in sociological theory, but instead it takes a 70-year-old idealistic vision and mocks it.
    This seems to be a recurring thing with many depictions of Wonder Woman and her Amazons.

    If I may compare with the Black Panther movie and its depiction of Wakanda...
    The film examines Wakanda and addresses that, as much as it's idealized wish-fulfillment, it is flawed and should be improved in some ways. But it never loses sight of that wish-fulfillment, empowering element: "Isn't Wakanda awesome and don't you wish it existed?"
    Even imperfect, the filmmakers clearly regard Wakanda and its society as a good.

    With the Amazons, however, whenever they are examined in such a way, it almost always seems to come from a place of "The Amazons and/or Wonder Woman are wrong and need to be taught a lesson."
    The DCAU, Bloodlines, Earth 1...all to one extent or another...the Amazons beliefs aren't just challenged, they must be rejected, shattered and rebuilt.

    That isn't to say Themyscira should be portrayed as a flawless utopia, but like Black Panther's depiction of Wakanda, critique/examination of it should come from a place of love. But too many writers seem to regard Themyscira and Amazon society as fundamentally broken.

    Strikes me as wrong-headed way to approach the character and her mythology.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The trouble with the "wokeness" of Morrison's Earth One is two-fold.

    The first is that it is largely superficial. Steve Trevor is made a black man, but the only thing that results in is some comments from him about not being trusting of the government (while he is a fighter pilot!) and that cringey scene with Diana and a dog's collar. Likewise Morrison brings up trans women, but only in the context of levering criticism against Diana and the Amazons, and the person bringing that up also turns up to be a pawn of Doctor Psycho's. He also brings up body positivity and body shaming—but it's the Amazons who do it!
    This is false. they are two different characters. The trans woman has longer brown hair and glasses, the pawn of Dr. Psycho's has dyed pink short hair. The trans woman isn't leveling a criticism, she's just asking if there is a place for her on Paradise Island and Diana says there is without hesitation. Her facial expression indicates she has no issue with her response. An altogether different blonde woman asks Diana about her style of dress and body images. And I think it's realistic of Diana to not really understand what messages her body and dress may be sending because media and fashion are not a thing on Paradise Island. That's more of an issue I have with the debate not going on long enough and the series needing more space to breath, but I don't see body shaming by any Amazons other than Mala, who is rightfully called out for it. Althea's concern makes sense because she's a doctor that comes from a world without obesity. Her's actually seems like an honest reaction. Etta/Beth seems to imply she used to be even heavier than she is now and she's happy with herself now and isn't at a dangerous weight, but it would still be unheard of for women who come from a world without the foods and inactive life styles that lead to obesity.

    What is wrong with Steve not entirely trusting his government? Neither does Darnell. And with good reason it turns out. Maybe it will result in a career change.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The second is who the "wokeness" is aimed at. Every single example above takes aim not at Man's World, but at Diana and the Amazons. It's not an honest re-examination of Marston's Golden Age work, or a revisit of it which re-imagines Themyscira based on 70 years of advances in sociological theory, but instead it takes a 70-year-old idealistic vision and mocks it.

    It is false and dishonest wokeness.
    Man's World produces creeps like Dr. Psycho who is unambiguously the most detestable person in the book. The Amazons have superior technology and more importantly, want to be left alone. They only venture out to return Diana to the island and don't do any permanent harm. The governments of Man's World are depicted as being threatened by their mere existence and/or wanting their advances for themselves, and are conspiring to turn the public against them and provoke a war. I'm not seeing how Man's World gets off looking clean here. They still look worse.

  9. #24
    Spectacular Member VonHammersmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What exactly do you think woke means here?
    Simply being aware that black Americans have regrettably suffered under the yoke of racism is not what “woke” means in 2019, that’s just common sense. “Woke” is that dialed up to 11--thousand. The fact that you think Wonder Woman:Earth-1 is quote “deeply offensive” is an excellent case in point
    Last edited by VonHammersmark; 11-09-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    Simply being aware that black Americans have regrettably suffered under the yoke of racism is not what “woke” means in 2019, that’s just common sense. “Woke” is that dialed up to 11--thousand. The fact that you think Wonder Woman:Earth-1 is quote “deeply offensive” is an excellent case in point
    So now you're basically deciding what this word means because you don't like certain people?

    When the hell did I call it deeply offensive?

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    Simply being aware that black Americans have regrettably suffered under the yoke of racism is not what “woke” means in 2019, that’s just common sense. “Woke” is that dialed up to 11--thousand. The fact that you think Wonder Woman:Earth-1 is quote “deeply offensive” is an excellent case in point
    No it's not, that's your negative interpretation of it.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is false. they are two different characters. The trans woman has longer brown hair and glasses, the pawn of Dr. Psycho's has dyed pink short hair. The trans woman isn't leveling a criticism, she's just asking if there is a place for her on Paradise Island and Diana says there is without hesitation. Her facial expression indicates she has no issue with her response.
    Ah, I misremembered about the question from the trans woman. Thanks for pointing that out.

    However, I still think the exchange is rather weakly depicted by Morrison and Paquette.

    earthone-transexchange.jpg

    Note that we don't see Diana's face, only her body pose, and that her answer is rather general. Now, there is nothing wrong with that type of answer in general, but it is generally taken poorly when received by people of consistently disadvantaged or oppressed groups.

    Thus shallow wokeness from Morrison's part. Now, if he had shown a greater knowledge of feminist theory in other parts of the story, I'd easily let it pass, but he never does.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't see body shaming by any Amazons other than Mala, who is rightfully called out for it. Althea's concern makes sense because she's a doctor that comes from a world without obesity. Her's actually seems like an honest reaction. Etta/Beth seems to imply she used to be even heavier than she is now and she's happy with herself now and isn't at a dangerous weight, but it would still be unheard of for women who come from a world without the foods and inactive life styles that lead to obesity.
    Is she? By anyone other than Beth?

    And while Mala's attitude to Beth's body might be an outlier, it's only in its magnitude, not its direction. Diana's first reaction to the Beta Lambda girls is "what has Man's World done to your bodies". And Althea's reaction is far too reminiscent of the attitude many overweight women receive from doctors, where no matter the problem they seek for, the answer is always to lose weight.

    And note the context for Althea's interjection. She is using Beth's body as an argument for why Beth shouldn't be heard.

    Either Morrison isn't woke here at all, or he is weaponising his wokeness to tear down the Amazons.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    What is wrong with Steve not entirely trusting his government? Neither does Darnell. And with good reason it turns out. Maybe it will result in a career change.
    Again, this comes down to context. Steve Trevor's attitudes towards the US government doesn't strike me as strange for a black man, but they do strike me as strange for a highly trusted officer and fighter pilot.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Ah, I misremembered about the question from the trans woman. Thanks for pointing that out.

    However, I still think the exchange is rather weakly depicted by Morrison and Paquette.

    earthone-transexchange.jpg

    Note that we don't see Diana's face, only her body pose, and that her answer is rather general. Now, there is nothing wrong with that type of answer in general, but it is generally taken poorly when received by people of consistently disadvantaged or oppressed groups.

    Thus shallow wokeness from Morrison's part. Now, if he had shown a greater knowledge of feminist theory in other parts of the story, I'd easily let it pass, but he never does.
    That is a discussion that needed more room to breath, but still: what more should Diana have said at that moment that would be satisfying?

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Is she? By anyone other than Beth?
    She doesn't aim at anyone other than Beth, and only in one scene, who else needs to call her out on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    And while Mala's attitude to Beth's body might be an outlier, it's only in its magnitude, not its direction. Diana's first reaction to the Beta Lambda girls is "what has Man's World done to your bodies". And Althea's reaction is far too reminiscent of the attitude many overweight women receive from doctors, where no matter the problem they seek for, the answer is always to lose weight.
    Again, unlike real life doctors, Althea has no basis for seeing a body type like that because the unhealthy processed foods and inactive life styles that lead to things like being a little overweight to dangerous obesity are not a thing on Amazonia. She and Diana are literally seeing it for the first time, so they are displaying some "innocently insensitive" reactions, which strikes me as normal considering they've never interacted with modern society until now.

    By our standards, Beth has perhaps left the danger zone of her weight and is now just overweight but healthy. But obesity is a major problem, especially here in the US, and the Amazons are not anywhere near as used to it and the case-by-case nuances that we are. It doesn't strike me as being too different from Perez's Feast of Five arc, where the Amazons were curious about the disabled architect in a wheelchair and kept (unintentionally) being condescending to him by asking if he was ok or in pain. Because they'd never seen anyone like him before and had no basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    And note the context for Althea's interjection. She is using Beth's body as an argument for why Beth shouldn't be heard.
    And is immediately dismissed by her queen, who warms up to Beth rather quickly. Not an outsider, but a fellow Amazon who wants to hear her speak. And any concern Diana has for Beth's health doesn't prevent her from immediately taking to Beth and listening to her advice, and considering her her best friend. So we only have two Amazons that are condescending to Beth, and even then they are coming from different emotional states.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Either Morrison isn't woke here at all, or he is weaponising his wokeness to tear down the Amazons.
    Not just the Amazons, since volume 2 produces villains that represent problems in our world, especially Psycho. In fact, he is the main one who questions the Amazons, and any point he makes is undermined by him being a sleazy, manipulative asshole. It could be interpreted as Morrison saying that both societies have lessons they need to learn, which I think (at least on paper) is a fair idea. Diana's role isn't as effective if she's only preaching to us how great Paradise island is, it has to have its own problems as both worlds develop towards a future together. But he didn't go the route of, say, having them seduce and murder unarmed men and chuck male babies off of cliffs or harm any outsiders in any permanent way, especially unprovoked.

    Man's world, meanwhile, is gearing up for war because the powerful women are independent and don't want to be controlled. Our world is depicted as worse.

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