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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I think 5G is the wrong approach if diversity is the desired effect. Personally, I'm just tired of these compromises when it comes to diversity, and it's almost always gotta' be some compromise. It's like, "Okay, you get diversity, but you get a black Batman instead of your own thing." Miles Morales is cool, and I liked his movie, but my idea of Spider-Man is always going to be Peter Parker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Instead of the idea of "everyone can be Spider-Man"...why not just give black people/Latin people/whoever their own characters that are as good or better than Spider-Man?

    You say that, and everyone, from fans to professionals, seems to think what you said is just entirely impossible. It CAN'T be done. To that I say, "Hogwash!"

    Somehow, these big corporations need to figure out how to get new and worthwhile properties off the ground. It might be difficult, but it's not impossible if you put the resources and talent behind them and make it worth the talent's while (meaning they have to learn to negotiate with them and get rid of these totally one sided deals). Either that, or they need to somehow transform the diverse characters they do have into main event characters.

    Everything else, from putting a black man in a white man's suit, racebending white characters, and so on, are just compromises that divide fanbases, piss people off, and don't give people looking for diverse heroes EXACTLY what they want (I don't even think black Spider-Man is EXACTLY what they're looking for, even if they think it is).

    Yes, Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Siegal and Shuster, and these people were definitely especially creative and talented individuals, but give me a break. It's not like creativity in the human race lessened or stopped with them. It is possible to make something better or as good. I don't think we need a black Batman. It's kind of embarrassing to me.


    Well fortunately the comic book companies doesn't listen to ideas like this. If people want to prefer existing characters or original characters, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you can't understand the appeal that freakin Michael B Jordan went to DC to ask to play for Val Zod, Calvin Ellis, or specifically a black superman, or the fact that miles morales, a black/latino spider man, is the most popular new character to come from Marvel in the last decade, then you honestly don't know what folks from different walks of life want, and the fact that you try to speak for people who viewpoint are clearly different than yours not only illustrate the classic fan mentality I spoke about, but goes even further into straight up narcissism. To believe you actually know more than the fans who like miles morales and legacy characters themselves on what we're looking for in a superhero speaks volumes.
    Last edited by leo619; 12-08-2019 at 01:04 AM.

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Well fortunately the comic book companies doesn't listen to ideas like this. If people want to prefer existing characters or original characters, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you can't understand the appeal that freakin Michael B Jordan went to DC to ask to play for Val Zod, Calvin Ellis, or specifically a black superman, or the fact that miles morales, a black/latino spider man, is the most popular new character to come from Marvel in the last decade, then you honestly don't know what folks from different walks of life want, and the fact that you try to speak for people who viewpoint are clearly different than yours not only illustrate the classic fan mentality I spoke about, but goes even further into straight up narcissism. To believe you actually know more than the fans who like miles morales and legacy characters themselves on what we're looking for in a superhero speaks volumes.
    Well, at least now we have it on record that you would prefer somebody's hand me downs--which, by the way, they are going to take back and you KNOW this--than actual original characters that can stand toe to toe with characters like Superman and Batman, which Val Zod and Miles Morales will never be able to do. Ever.

    I think THAT speaks volumes.

    Oh, and I understand the appeal of a black Batman or whatever. That doesn't mean I don't think the idea is stupid, shortsighted, lazy, and in the grand scheme of things, just leads to a dead end. Batman will never not be Bruce Wayne in the hearts and minds of the public. Why even invest in a black Batman, when you can invest in a black character that can have HIS OWN IDENTITY and own it just like Bruce Wayne does?
    Why? Because these companies would rather take shortsighted shortcuts--like 5G--that they deem as easier.

    I understand the appeal of that. I just choose to have a higher standard than that.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I think 5G is the wrong approach if diversity is the desired effect. Personally, I'm just tired of these compromises when it comes to diversity, and it's almost always gotta' be some compromise. It's like, "Okay, you get diversity, but you get a black Batman instead of your own thing." Miles Morales is cool, and I liked his movie, but my idea of Spider-Man is always going to be Peter Parker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Instead of the idea of "everyone can be Spider-Man"...why not just give black people/Latin people/whoever their own characters that are as good or better than Spider-Man?

    You say that, and everyone, from fans to professionals, seems to think what you said is just entirely impossible. It CAN'T be done. To that I say, "Hogwash!"

    Somehow, these big corporations need to figure out how to get new and worthwhile properties off the ground. It might be difficult, but it's not impossible if you put the resources and talent behind them and make it worth the talent's while (meaning they have to learn to negotiate with them and get rid of these totally one sided deals). Either that, or they need to somehow transform the diverse characters they do have into main event characters.

    Everything else, from putting a black man in a white man's suit, racebending white characters, and so on, are just compromises that divide fanbases, piss people off, and don't give people looking for diverse heroes EXACTLY what they want (I don't even think black Spider-Man is EXACTLY what they're looking for, even if they think it is).

    Yes, Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Siegal and Shuster, and these people were definitely especially creative and talented individuals, but give me a break. It's not like creativity in the human race lessened or stopped with them. It is possible to make something better or as good. I don't think we need a black Batman. It's kind of embarrassing to me.
    People try to do what you are asking for all the time. And all too often the response they get is apathy or outright hostility.

    The creators of BLACK got death threats.

    Duke Thomas got criticism despite replacing no one.

    Milestone frequently deals with dismissal from people who just view the characters as "comics for black people".

    Luke Cage got bashed by fans as a creator's pet for Bendis.

    Kamala Khan, who was using a code name no one was using at the time got heat.

    People will find reasons to hate poc characters no matter the circumstances under which they are used.

  4. #124
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People try to do what you are asking for all the time. And all too often the response they get is apathy or outright hostility.

    The creators of BLACK got death threats.
    Kwanza is an outspoken political hothead and big mouth on Twitter. That's probably the biggest problem people have with him. He's going to be a lightning rod based on that alone. His political comics are just the icing on the cake.

    Duke Thomas got criticism despite replacing no one.
    Batman's gang was overly large before Duke Thomas even arrived. Nobody needed or asked for a new wannabe Robin. Besides, I wouldn't totally call him an original leading hero, at least not in the terms I'm talking about. He's some Batman supporting character.

    Milestone frequently deals with dismissal from people who just view the characters as "comics for black people".
    That's because Milestone presented itself largely as comics for black people. If they didn't think they were doing that, they were wrong.

    Luke Cage got bashed by fans as a creator's pet for Bendis.

    Kamala Khan, who was using a code name no one was using at the time got heat.
    I don't really have much to say about this because I really don't follow these characters. What you're saying could be true, but there may be some other circumstances involved.

    People will find reasons to hate poc characters no matter the circumstances under which they are used.
    People hate white characters, too. Some Wally West fans don't like reading Barry Allen. Hal Jordan fans were at Kyle Rayner fans' throats and vice versa for years. Everything involving Ben Reilly wasn't popular.

    The point I'm trying to illustrate is that there are frequently reasons people dislike or dismiss PoC characters that don't have to do with their race. Oftentimes, the companies create a situation where that will happen--like 5G--,the creators blast a segment of the potential readership and want to preach to people--like Kwanza--, and so on.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Well, at least now we have it on record that you would prefer somebody's hand me downs--which, by the way, they are going to take back and you KNOW this--than actual original characters that can stand toe to toe with characters like Superman and Batman, which Val Zod and Miles Morales will never be able to do. Ever.

    I think THAT speaks volumes.

    Oh, and I understand the appeal of a black Batman or whatever. That doesn't mean I don't think the idea is stupid, shortsighted, lazy, and in the grand scheme of things, just leads to a dead end. Batman will never not be Bruce Wayne in the hearts and minds of the public. Why even invest in a black Batman, when you can invest in a black character that can have HIS OWN IDENTITY and own it just like Bruce Wayne does?
    Why? Because these companies would rather take shortsighted shortcuts--like 5G--that they deem as easier.

    I understand the appeal of that. I just choose to have a higher standard than that.

    Well of course you do, you have such a superiority complex with you idea of what considered suitable characters that you attempt to downplay others who have a vested interest in characters that may be different from your own. But thanks for proving my point as to where the divide in fandom truly comes from, and it has little to do with your creators. So you can believe you have a "higher standard" all you want. Fortunately, sane people don't take that asinine ideology seriously.

  6. #126
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Well of course you do, you have such a superiority complex with you idea of what considered suitable characters that you attempt to downplay others who have a vested interest in characters that may be different from your own. But thanks for proving my point as to where the divide in fandom truly comes from, and it has little to do with your creators.
    I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. "It has little to do with your creators."

    ...

    Who are my creators? And for that matter, who are my characters? I'm not sure what you mean when you say things like that.

    Also, you seem to have some kind of personal problem with me in particular for whatever reason, which is perfectly fine with me, but for the sake of discussion, it would probably be best if you addressed the points being brought up instead of getting defensive and tossing around ad hominems and personal potshots.

    Yes, I have a higher standard than cheer leading for the creation of alternates and diverse characters assuming the roles established by white ones. I also have a higher standard than cheer leading the original portrayal of Ebony White. This nothing I'm ashamed of and it isn't indicative of a superiority complex. It means there are certain things I am impressed by and appreciate, and certain things I am not impressed by. Lazy shortcuts don't impress me, and I do believe it would do diverse characters more good (and by extension people looking for that content), to have them develop their own worthwhile identities and stories than alternate Batman, alternate Superman and so on would. Because those characters will always just be alternates. You can call that me downplaying them, I suppose, but I see it just as a statement of fact.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. "It has little to do with your creators."

    ...

    Who are my creators? And for that matter, who are my characters? I'm not sure what you mean when you say things like that.

    Also, you seem to have some kind of personal problem with me in particular for whatever reason, which is perfectly fine with me, but for the sake of discussion, it would probably be best if you addressed the points being brought up instead of getting defensive and tossing around ad hominems and personal potshots.

    Yes, I have a higher standard than cheer leading for the creation of alternates and diverse characters assuming the roles established by white ones. I also have a higher standard than cheer leading the original portrayal of Ebony White. This nothing I'm ashamed of and it isn't indicative of a superiority complex. It means there are certain things I am impressed by and appreciate, and certain things I am not impressed by. Lazy shortcuts don't impress me, and I do believe it would do diverse characters more good (and by extension people looking for that content), to have them develop their own worthwhile identities and stories than alternate Batman, alternate Superman and so on would. Because those characters will always just be alternates. You can call that me downplaying them, I suppose, but I see it just as a statement of fact.

    I meant to say the creators, referring to the comic book creator themselves.

    It is entirely a superiority complex, the ordeals transitioned from talking points about characters to about people when you specifically believed you knew more about the people enjoying legacy characters then the people themselves.

    Everything else, from putting a black man in a white man's suit, racebending white characters, and so on, are just compromises that divide fanbases, piss people off, and don't give people looking for diverse heroes EXACTLY what they want (on't even think black Spider-Man is EXACTLY what they're looking for, even if they think it is
    So don't start backing up on personal attacks when you specifically starting making personal attacks about the fandom who enjoy legacy characters to begin with. You can use double speak all you wish to cover the superiority complex you're clearly displaying over individuals who enjoy legacy characters like Miles Morales, but you're not fooling anyone.

  8. #128
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    So... this thread is still about the possibilities of reviving the Satellite League in the modern day?

    I think we'll eventually see it one day.
    I think the trick would be not to bring them back as 'the Satellite League' or have any kind of fanfare that would draw comparisons.

    Just start adding members slowly, treating the book like Marvel's Defenders (or DC's All-Star Squadron).
    Then after a year or so, do a story with all the members so far getting together and just imply that everyone is active.
    Throw in a satellite hq and you're done.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    So... this thread is still about the possibilities of reviving the Satellite League in the modern day?

    I think we'll eventually see it one day.
    I think the trick would be not to bring them back as 'the Satellite League' or have any kind of fanfare that would draw comparisons.

    Just start adding members slowly, treating the book like Marvel's Defenders (or DC's All-Star Squadron).
    Then after a year or so, do a story with all the members so far getting together and just imply that everyone is active.
    Throw in a satellite hq and you're done.
    I'm sure hope you're right about this.

    You know, when I started this thread, I never dreamed it would turn into a thread about race. I just thought of it as the greatest Justice League that's ever been.

    There is still a dominance in white characters being created for important, prominent DC roles (Harley, Jonathan, Damian, etc...) so why be so hard on the past.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    So... this thread is still about the possibilities of reviving the Satellite League in the modern day?

    I think we'll eventually see it one day.
    I think the trick would be not to bring them back as 'the Satellite League' or have any kind of fanfare that would draw comparisons.

    Just start adding members slowly, treating the book like Marvel's Defenders (or DC's All-Star Squadron).
    Then after a year or so, do a story with all the members so far getting together and just imply that everyone is active.
    Throw in a satellite hq and you're done.
    Thanks for bringing the question back on topic.

    One headwind to the original Satellite League coming back (aside from everything that happened between The Detroit League and Today) is one of its underlying assumptions that may no longer hold up. Until the induction of Red Tornado, every member of the JL had - at a minimum - carried an on-going feature, enabling the assumption that these were The World's Greatest Superheroes.

    Sure, there were other characters that met that criteria in DC's stable but, up until The Detroit League, you could make the argument about why the roster of DC's premiere super team was what it was.

    Now even at the time, that was eroding. Atom and Hawkman lost their titles (even when they were put together). Aquaman and Green Lantern faded in and out of publication. Elongated Man and Zatanna were relegated to the guest-star circuit, and RT never had a title to call his own (at that time). So the idea that the JL has assembled The Best Of The Best from the old roster, even as an in-universe assumption, doesn't hold together as well because it lacks a bit of the meta-glamour of the old league.

    The Post-Crisis Giffen-League tried to take that on, at least at first. Denied access to Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash, DC populated teh team with several characters who were either getting solo titles, or mini-series (Blue Beetle, Mr. Miracle, Dr. Fate, and later, Booster Gold and Captain Atom). Ultimately, IMO, it wasn't the same, partially because of the direction Giffen went, and partially because none of those new leaguer's titles lasted.

    If you wanted to get the band back together for a nostalgia tour, that's easy enough. If you want to recapture the underlying cachet behind The Satellite League, that's something else again.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    So... this thread is still about the possibilities of reviving the Satellite League in the modern day?
    I don't think it is. WonderScott's answer to Caj's question, while perfectly valid, took this thread in a direction away from the Satellite League and onto some heavy topics--which probably deserve their own thread.

    I have a policy of never responding to "Appreciation" topics, but it seems like the only way to do a controversy-free Satellite topic would be as an Appreciation (at least my understanding is that Appreciation threads must avoid any negativity and have to stick to only praising the topic in question).
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  12. #132
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    There is an appreciation thread for the Satellite era League:
    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ight=satellite

    Anyone can feel free to go there for non-controversy and simple appreciation.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People try to do what you are asking for all the time. And all too often the response they get is apathy or outright hostility.

    The creators of BLACK got death threats.

    Duke Thomas got criticism despite replacing no one.

    Milestone frequently deals with dismissal from people who just view the characters as "comics for black people".

    Luke Cage got bashed by fans as a creator's pet for Bendis.

    Kamala Khan, who was using a code name no one was using at the time got heat.

    People will find reasons to hate poc characters no matter the circumstances under which they are used.
    It also doesn't help that new character get shrugged off, you can't sell new properties if people don't buy them. There's a million complaints when something like Black Batman happens but they still get more support than new characters. Miles Morales would've died with the Ultimate universe if his name wasn't Spider-Man
    Reading list: Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Ironheart (Marvel), Champions (Marvel), Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel), Runaways (Marvel), Young Justice (DC), Naomi (DC), Justice League Odyssey (DC), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Bitter Root (Image), Quincredible (Lionforge), Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

  14. #134
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Thanks for bringing the question back on topic.

    One headwind to the original Satellite League coming back (aside from everything that happened between The Detroit League and Today) is one of its underlying assumptions that may no longer hold up. Until the induction of Red Tornado, every member of the JL had - at a minimum - carried an on-going feature, enabling the assumption that these were The World's Greatest Superheroes.

    Sure, there were other characters that met that criteria in DC's stable but, up until The Detroit League, you could make the argument about why the roster of DC's premiere super team was what it was.

    Now even at the time, that was eroding. Atom and Hawkman lost their titles (even when they were put together). Aquaman and Green Lantern faded in and out of publication. Elongated Man and Zatanna were relegated to the guest-star circuit, and RT never had a title to call his own (at that time). So the idea that the JL has assembled The Best Of The Best from the old roster, even as an in-universe assumption, doesn't hold together as well because it lacks a bit of the meta-glamour of the old league.

    The Post-Crisis Giffen-League tried to take that on, at least at first. Denied access to Superman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash, DC populated teh team with several characters who were either getting solo titles, or mini-series (Blue Beetle, Mr. Miracle, Dr. Fate, and later, Booster Gold and Captain Atom). Ultimately, IMO, it wasn't the same, partially because of the direction Giffen went, and partially because none of those new leaguer's titles lasted.

    If you wanted to get the band back together for a nostalgia tour, that's easy enough. If you want to recapture the underlying cachet behind The Satellite League, that's something else again.
    True.
    I also think there was a bit of a 'look at us now' motivation behind the initial roster of JLI, up to Captain Atom & Rocket Red in #7, which was planned from the beginning.

    The post-Crisis DCU meant that Captain Marvel, Dr. Fate and Mister Miracle (all recently featured in the Super Powers toy line) could all join the League.
    Blue Beetle could also join.
    Then Dr. Light II to really hit home on the post-Crisis point.
    Booster Gold was DC's newest hero, and then Captain Atom (another Charlton acquisition).
    The 1987 JLI was like a melting pot of the combined multiverse.

    I like the way you're looking at the meta-reasons why members were added originally.
    It reminds me of how the JSA membership began by being given to characters in their own features in an anthology. If they stopped appearing in the anthology or got their own name title series they were dropped from the JSA roster.
    I think this is where the JLA's original design for membership came from.
    Not at all surprising, since Gardner Fox created and wrote both teams.

    I think the idea of the heroes needing to be prominently featured elsewhere started to lose importance when Dennis O'Neil took over writing.
    By the time of Red Tornado, I think they were looking for characters that the book could call its own, those that give it its own special identity. Kinda like what characters like Vision, Scarlet Witch and Wasp did for the Avengers.

    Conway started adding his own characters to the team with Firestorm to give himself more to work with as far as a continuing narrative not dependent on dealing with other writers or editors. And I firmly believe Vixen was already planned to join before JLDetroit was thought up. She very likely could've been a Satellite Leaguer if things went differently with the overall DCU direction at the time.
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    True.
    I also think there was a bit of a 'look at us now' motivation behind the initial roster of JLI, up to Captain Atom & Rocket Red in #7, which was planned from the beginning.

    The post-Crisis DCU meant that Captain Marvel, Dr. Fate and Mister Miracle (all recently featured in the Super Powers toy line) could all join the League.
    Blue Beetle could also join.
    Then Dr. Light II to really hit home on the post-Crisis point.
    Booster Gold was DC's newest hero, and then Captain Atom (another Charlton acquisition).
    The 1987 JLI was like a melting pot of the combined multiverse.

    I like the way you're looking at the meta-reasons why members were added originally.
    It reminds me of how the JSA membership began by being given to characters in their own features in an anthology. If they stopped appearing in the anthology or got their own name title series they were dropped from the JSA roster.
    I think this is where the JLA's original design for membership came from.
    Not at all surprising, since Gardner Fox created and wrote both teams.

    I think the idea of the heroes needing to be prominently featured elsewhere started to lose importance when Dennis O'Neil took over writing.
    By the time of Red Tornado, I think they were looking for characters that the book could call its own, those that give it its own special identity. Kinda like what characters like Vision, Scarlet Witch and Wasp did for the Avengers.

    Conway started adding his own characters to the team with Firestorm to give himself more to work with as far as a continuing narrative not dependent on dealing with other writers or editors. And I firmly believe Vixen was already planned to join before JLDetroit was thought up. She very likely could've been a Satellite Leaguer if things went differently with the overall DCU direction at the time.
    Yeah, Firestorm had the publishing credit to join at the time, more so than RT. I agree with you about Vixen. While she lacked stature at the time of joining the Detroit League, she was clearly created in hopes of a breakout, and probably would have had the stature had The Implosion not occurred.

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