Page 8 of 12 FirstFirst ... 456789101112 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 174
  1. #106
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,936

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Damian has disrupted Tim Drake more than anyone else, though. Its not just how they impact Bruce and Clark. To a lesser extent, Jon disrupted Kon. There have also been fans of Chris Kent who would have preferred he got attention instead of Jon being invented.

    Does any of this conform to a classic fan mentality?
    Oh definitely, because the source of the original mantle remains intact. A classic fan who likes bruce may not like tim drake, or dick grayson, or damian, but like others listed. Just like a classic fan who likes Clark may like not like Kon or Jon, but likes another listed there. A classic fan who enjoys the original mantle holder can and often do have different preferences on the legacy characters they enjoy. So a classic fan who loves bruce can hate or be impartial to Tim and prefer Damian for example.
    Last edited by leo619; 12-06-2019 at 10:46 AM.

  2. #107
    Mighty Member Kaijudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,086

    Default

    The thing to remember in all of this is that 5G will ultimately fail. It's another hail mary pass on DiDio's part, like the New 52, trying to drum up business/attention to DC and make them more like Marvel, which will last for a short burst of time and then ultimately revert back to the norm. Some people will like it, sales will go up out of curiosity, but it'll ultimately fail, sales will go down, and the "standards" will be brought back to drum up business again.

    Comics is a long con...you just need to wait it out and whatever massive changes have occurred will be reversed.

  3. #108
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    The thing to remember in all of this is that 5G will ultimately fail. It's another hail mary pass on DiDio's part, like the New 52, trying to drum up business/attention to DC and make them more like Marvel, which will last for a short burst of time and then ultimately revert back to the norm. Some people will like it, sales will go up out of curiosity, but it'll ultimately fail, sales will go down, and the "standards" will be brought back to drum up business again.

    Comics is a long con...you just need to wait it out and whatever massive changes have occurred will be reversed.
    You're describing every shake up in the past ... 20 years? I'm pretty sure they know interest will plateau, barring maybe one or two break-outs. Then they will reset (which will also boost interest for a bit) then lead us to the next shake-up. That's the strategy, rather than a hail mary.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 12-06-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,936

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    The thing to remember in all of this is that 5G will ultimately fail. It's another hail mary pass on DiDio's part, like the New 52, trying to drum up business/attention to DC and make them more like Marvel, which will last for a short burst of time and then ultimately revert back to the norm. Some people will like it, sales will go up out of curiosity, but it'll ultimately fail, sales will go down, and the "standards" will be brought back to drum up business again.

    Comics is a long con...you just need to wait it out and whatever massive changes have occurred will be reversed.


    You mean like how Rebirth has ultimately fail in trying to drum up business by reverting back to a "standard" approach? I like how people like to call out New 52 when Rebirth sales has crash faster than New 52 did, but Rebirth fits closer to what classic fans enjoy so not surprising it gets swept under the rug.

  5. #110
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    8,907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    You mean like how Rebirth has ultimately fail in trying to drum up business by reverting back to a "standard" approach? I like how people like to call out New 52 when Rebirth sales has crash faster than New 52 did, but Rebirth fits closer to what classic fans enjoy so not surprising it gets swept under the rug.
    Some of that may be due to the bloom coming off the rose a bit faster. Some of the appeals to classic fans were rather superficial. The biggest one being Wally in the Titans. yeah fans got Wally back, but they didn't have much of a follow up plan. Like the first few issues of Titans were hard to find in stores, and then when people realized what was happening, they gradually stopped giving a crap. Same with Cass and Steph being in Detective, the fans may not have liked how they were written or just weren't satisfied with them not being Batgirl.

    Meanwhile, there were definite appeals to classic fans in the New 52. Why else do you think Barry Allen was the Flash, Barbara Gordon was Batgirl, etc. Aquaman's New 52 relaunch was based around bringing back a lot of pre-COIE flavor. Meanwhile, Superman debates rage back and forth on the New 52 guy and replacing the classic version, despite the fact that he had elements from the Golden and Silver age embedded into him. So he is arguably closer to the classic original, or is at least no more "un-classic" than the pre-Flashpoint guy. But that's the thing, nobody can agree who is a classic fan or not. The definition is rather loose and depends on which fan you're talking to.

  6. #111
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,085

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    You mean like how Rebirth has ultimately fail in trying to drum up business by reverting back to a "standard" approach? I like how people like to call out New 52 when Rebirth sales has crash faster than New 52 did, but Rebirth fits closer to what classic fans enjoy so not surprising it gets swept under the rug.
    Convergence was the event that hurt DC. The New 52 was indeed doing fine up to that point, but the wheels came off the wagon after that.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  7. #112
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,085

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Some of that may be due to the bloom coming off the rose a bit faster. Some of the appeals to classic fans were rather superficial. The biggest one being Wally in the Titans. yeah fans got Wally back, but they didn't have much of a follow up plan. Like the first few issues of Titans were hard to find in stores, and then when people realized what was happening, they gradually stopped giving a crap. Same with Cass and Steph being in Detective, the fans may not have liked how they were written or just weren't satisfied with them not being Batgirl.

    Meanwhile, there were definite appeals to classic fans in the New 52. Why else do you think Barry Allen was the Flash, Barbara Gordon was Batgirl, etc. Aquaman's New 52 relaunch was based around bringing back a lot of pre-COIE flavor. Meanwhile, Superman debates rage back and forth on the New 52 guy and replacing the classic version, despite the fact that he had elements from the Golden and Silver age embedded into him. So he is arguably closer to the classic original, or is at least no more "un-classic" than the pre-Flashpoint guy. But that's the thing, nobody can agree who is a classic fan or not. The definition is rather loose and depends on which fan you're talking to.
    Yeah, "classic" on this site usually means "what I like the best."
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,936

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Some of that may be due to the bloom coming off the rose a bit faster. Some of the appeals to classic fans were rather superficial. The biggest one being Wally in the Titans. yeah fans got Wally back, but they didn't have much of a follow up plan. Like the first few issues of Titans were hard to find in stores, and then when people realized what was happening, they gradually stopped giving a crap. Same with Cass and Steph being in Detective, the fans may not have liked how they were written or just weren't satisfied with them not being Batgirl.

    Meanwhile, there were definite appeals to classic fans in the New 52. Why else do you think Barry Allen was the Flash, Barbara Gordon was Batgirl, etc. Aquaman's New 52 relaunch was based around bringing back a lot of pre-COIE flavor. Meanwhile, Superman debates rage back and forth on the New 52 guy and replacing the classic version, despite the fact that he had elements from the Golden and Silver age embedded into him. So he is arguably closer to the classic original, or is at least no more "un-classic" than the pre-Flashpoint guy. But that's the thing, nobody can agree who is a classic fan or not. The definition is rather loose and depends on which fan you're talking to.

    Eh not really, a classic fan common dynamic is nostalgia, and the desire to see characters and the world mostly based around a certain era. There's often a strong desire for continuity and can often be resistant to change. They often do not give new characters a try as they prefer to stick with characters they're familiar with. What you're talking about is monolithic, and no one is saying that either classic fans nor new readers all share the exact same severity and characteristics of certain descriptions within the label. This is in combination with the fact that certain people fit within the traditional description of the label, and attempts to adjust the definition so therefore they themselves don't seem to personally fit. But if their primary interest for reading comics fit within those areas, it's a duck. To contrast it, my number one priority in reading comics is reading diverse characters with good stories. That's largely a new reader. I have no interest in comics tailoring their characters or world to a certain era. Nostalgia means nothing to me, and I purchase new characters regularly. IF DC 5g did another clean slate reboot like new 52, I wouldn't care much. As long as the stories produce from that reboot are good and are filled with diverse characters being main stars within the universe, I'm a happy camper. There may be certain elements I would be upset about or miss, because a poster mentioned before, no one wants their favorites removed. But overall, sticking to a certain era or making sure the story contains 95% of content from a certain era isn't important to me.


    And I agree that Wally, Cass, and Steph treatment may play a small portion to the decline of sales, but no where near enough to be considered a huge drive to drop of sales we have today. The drop of sales just indicates the problem at large when it comes in comics, a dying market chokeholding itself into extinction. Rebirth crashing faster than the "hot topic" new 52 seals that dilemma. This is exactly why I said 5g isn't meant for comics, it's meant for other mediums. DC knows the comic book market cannot sustain itself. Same as Marvel. So it's looking to incorporate ANAD to bring in a new generation of heroes that can spark the same hype as Jane as Mighty Thor caused during Comic Con. That's why you're hearing stories of Ironheart being introduced in the MCU. That's why Sony created Into The Spiderverse which is largely their most critically acclaimed animation film in probably the last decade. And That is what DC currently missing. Once those 2-5 years are up, and DC has themselves a group of diverse heroes with enough stories to
    bring them to the mainstream medium, we'll see a return of an older status quo, and we'll get probably one more era of spark before the market completely cracks. (I don't see comics lasting another decade at it's current state, things will have to change.)

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,936

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Convergence was the event that hurt DC. The New 52 was indeed doing fine up to that point, but the wheels came off the wagon after that.
    I'd say even a little before. For example Earth 2 was doing just fine in terms of sales under Taylor and Jackson(???), but once World's End came into place, the book quickly started to crash in sales, with many labeling it destruction porn. It also didn't help that the follow up, Earth 2 Society was written by the same writer and was clearly a subpar writer. Overall it just revealed the lack of skill by many writers at DC when they don't have 30+ years of history to hand hold them into making good stories. Hell, after walker, Cyborg was stuck in man vs machine storylines for years, and constantly worged since he could be broken and put back together. (The freakin movie did this for example.) It took JLO for a writer to finally take Cyborg into the right direction, but of course that crashed and burn when Year of the villain hit. As if they haven't learn from World's End. Ultimately, new 52 crashed because DC writers at that time lacked the execution skills of say manga writers to create engaging stories without tons of history.

  10. #115
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Great. So now I'm pushed to pretend these comics are non existent. Smh.

    To everyone else.

    Y'know. I actually WANT some diversity, but every initiative where the plan is "Oooh I know!" instead of using EXISTING characters from all walks of life get this "WE'LL CHANGE THE ALREADY POPULAR CHARACTERS TO BE THAT REPRESENTATION!"
    I hope dies. Its lazy, and especially the way DC works.... only weakens the fanbase

    Spit on that idea, and death to that idea.

    There are so many better options.
    It really is that simple.

  11. #116
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    979

    Default

    I think 5G is the wrong approach if diversity is the desired effect. Personally, I'm just tired of these compromises when it comes to diversity, and it's almost always gotta' be some compromise. It's like, "Okay, you get diversity, but you get a black Batman instead of your own thing." Miles Morales is cool, and I liked his movie, but my idea of Spider-Man is always going to be Peter Parker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Instead of the idea of "everyone can be Spider-Man"...why not just give black people/Latin people/whoever their own characters that are as good or better than Spider-Man?

    You say that, and everyone, from fans to professionals, seems to think what you said is just entirely impossible. It CAN'T be done. To that I say, "Hogwash!"

    Somehow, these big corporations need to figure out how to get new and worthwhile properties off the ground. It might be difficult, but it's not impossible if you put the resources and talent behind them and make it worth the talent's while (meaning they have to learn to negotiate with them and get rid of these totally one sided deals). Either that, or they need to somehow transform the diverse characters they do have into main event characters.

    Everything else, from putting a black man in a white man's suit, racebending white characters, and so on, are just compromises that divide fanbases, piss people off, and don't give people looking for diverse heroes EXACTLY what they want (I don't even think black Spider-Man is EXACTLY what they're looking for, even if they think it is).

    Yes, Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Siegal and Shuster, and these people were definitely especially creative and talented individuals, but give me a break. It's not like creativity in the human race lessened or stopped with them. It is possible to make something better or as good. I don't think we need a black Batman. It's kind of embarrassing to me.

  12. #117
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I think most DC readers would agree that the Satellite line-up was one of the best Justice League's we've ever had.

    It seems strange that no writer has ever tackled putting those heroes (or the current representation of those heroes) together for a mini-series or storyline. The last attempt was Identity Crisis (although that was kind of a disaster, but still...).
    Sure, but it was also whiter than a blank page. I say this as a white man.

    I love the Giffen/DeMatteis League immensely too, but I think that if DC wants to create a new classic lineup that's not just the big seven and one pet character, they really have to be brave and find someone who wants to do something new instead of, admittedly, Snyder's heartfelt cover album of "play the hits!"

    I do want to say it's been a fine cover album, but it's been very much all of Snyder's tropes played through the animated series aping Morrison. It doesn't feel like a classic run in that respect, though some moments have been excellent.

  13. #118
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,085

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I think 5G is the wrong approach if diversity is the desired effect. Personally, I'm just tired of these compromises when it comes to diversity, and it's almost always gotta' be some compromise. It's like, "Okay, you get diversity, but you get a black Batman instead of your own thing." Miles Morales is cool, and I liked his movie, but my idea of Spider-Man is always going to be Peter Parker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Instead of the idea of "everyone can be Spider-Man"...why not just give black people/Latin people/whoever their own characters that are as good or better than Spider-Man?

    You say that, and everyone, from fans to professionals, seems to think what you said is just entirely impossible. It CAN'T be done. To that I say, "Hogwash!"
    It might not be impossible to do today, but it's extremely difficult for a new character to get a foothold. I don't think it's a creator problem, either - I think they're just as good, if not better, than they have ever been. That's why many people want DC to diversify the best-known names, because the codenames are more important to readers than the secret identities. A new black character, i.e, with a brand-spanking superhero title isn't going to do nearly as good out of the box compared with a tried-and-tested brand. For better or worse, that's just a fact.

    Having said that, anybody thinking Clark or Bruce would be replaced for anything longer than a brief sojourn aren't be realistic, IMO.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  14. #119
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,116

    Default

    I'm in agreement with Vampire Savior on this one. Any new character is going to be difficult, but the hurdle of overcoming the resentment and inferred obsolescence of someone being "the new Batman" or whatever will ultimately hurt the character's long-term viability, imo. If you think about someone like Mr Miracle, it's not like he was such a huge name that people cared about but King wrote an amazing series that got people's attention. There's no reason DC can't try to find talent to push Vixen, Cyborg, Amazing Man, Katana, Skyrocket, etc. with good original stories without the "legacy/second class" baggage.

    They might have to start with their younger imprints first - maybe that'd work better since that audience doesn't have the same problems as us older farts.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 12-07-2019 at 02:36 PM.

  15. #120
    Spectacular Member Stick Figure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    156

    Default

    I guess it really that much of a divide between being a long time reader & a relatively new reader. I read some DC over the years but Bendis is what really got me trying a lot of new books. I’m pretty much focus on a handful of writers rather than characters. If 5g produces some great stories with a diverse “woke” cast, then I’ll be happy. Even with Marvel which I’ve read longer I don’t have an era in nostalgic for. Burn it all to the ground but just tell good stories.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •