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  1. #31
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    How marvel handles Wanda is a potentailly good indicator of how marvel could theoretically handle Dark Phoenx.Theres been a bit of build up in the previous movies, and she's getting her own show in addition to likely appearing in Dr. Strange. If Claremont is at least curious how an MCU version of Dark Phoenix might be handled, Wanda probably would be a good indicator.
    Wanda is a female version of legion, a character claremont created. marvel has to handle wanda like FX handled Legion. Anything else would be inferior to the comics.

    Can MCU do House of M movie that would do the comics justice? A movie that will make you care about the content of the story? No. they will make it light hearted comedy instead.

    want to know what house of m did thanks to Wanda and her madness? gave spiderman trauma because he had to relive Gwen Stacy dying. this will never be in a mcu soiderman movie.

    It caused another mutant massacre that led to the messiah complex storyline. one of the darkest xmen stories. cable and cyclops had to round up kids to fight for survival. the second book in the story , took place in another xmen dystopian future, and heavily featured X-force. we know the x-force movie is dead under disney.

    Marvel can't handle Claremont stories or xmen stories and no they can't handle Wanda going mad like the joker. that is too much for Disney's kid friendly content. DR STRANGE 2 will just stick to their fourmula
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-08-2019 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #32
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Wanda is a female version of legion, a character claremont created. marvel has to handle wanda like FX handled Legion. Anything else would be inferior to the comics.

    Can MCU do House of M movie that would do the comics justice? A movie that will make you care about the content of the story? No. they will make it light hearted comedy instead.

    want to know what house of m did thanks to Wanda and her madness? gave spiderman trauma because he had to relive Gwen Stacy dying. this is never be in a mcu soiderman movie.

    It aused another mutant massacre that lead to the messiah complex storyline. one of the darkest xmen stories. cable and cyclops had to round up kids to fight for survival. the second book in the story , took place in another xmen dystopian future, and heavily featured X-force. we know the x-force movie is dead under disney.

    Marvel can't handle Claremont stories or xmen stories and no they can't handle Wanda going mad like the joker. that is too much for Disney's kid friendly content. DR STRANGE 2 will just stick to their fourmula
    I doubt it's even going to really try and be the same story. If ANYTHING it'll probaby to the reverse of House of M... Wanda is a potential means of bringing mutants into the MCU rather than decimating them. Potentially.

    But certainly the elements of Wanda losing control of her powers and sanity potentially can be explored. She's got her own show, so they've got the time and space to really flesh that out.

  3. #33
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    Two thirds of FX's Legion sucked. So, I hope that isn't how they treat anyone.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Two thirds of FX's Legion sucked. So, I hope that isn't how they treat anyone.
    The is a tired mcu narrative about the most unique marvel show created that succeeded because Disney was not there or ruin it and it had no connection to the mcu. Boring. 2/3 of legion is light years ahead of any marvel stuff both in writing and technicals. Legion is not even on the same level as the best xmen movies. Some MCU fans should stop trying to rewrite xmen's lore just to make xmen fit the mcu formulaic formula that don't reflect Claremont's stories.

    2/3 of legion sucked? lol. this is the same show the 3rd season was praised for doing a better time travel story arc than endgame.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/le...el-1202156390/ ‘Legion’ Offers Marvel a Fresh Twist on Time-Travel With Real — and Very Strange — Consequences


    https://www.inverse.com/article/5702...engers-endgame
    'Legion' Season 3 Is Better Than 'Avengers: Endgame' in One Trippy Way


    This is what xmen movies need in the future. not simplistic Disney stuff. I doubt it takes a rocket scientist to see what is more Claremont. FX Legion or mcu. New Mutants 25 , XMEN 45 and Age of X has the answer.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-09-2019 at 04:24 AM.

  5. #35
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I doubt it's even going to really try and be the same story. If ANYTHING it'll probaby to the reverse of House of M... Wanda is a potential means of bringing mutants into the MCU rather than decimating them. Potentially.

    But certainly the elements of Wanda losing control of her powers and sanity potentially can be explored. She's got her own show, so they've got the time and space to really flesh that out.
    See I don't get this. Wanda lived to destroy her own race in House of m. she needs to decimate mutants.I know most of the mcu fans I know have said they don't read comics but you must have seen this iconic panel. it has many parodies.

    Attachment 89177


    Wanda bringing them together will be dumbing the story Disney style. its like that maleficent movie where she is the hero and not the villain from the classic animation, it makes no sense.it doesn't work. Also I think to do this will be to change the story in the opposite direction in a way that will be worse than Ragnarok. Ragnarok is a mythology so you can reimagine it, although for marvel, comedy and jokes was not the best route. house of m is an original marvel storyline with specifics, you cant reimagine or reverse it, if you do., you are not telling the story.

    Some of you were quick to jump on Claremont but would he be happy if an xmen story is reversed to something a lot fluffier than the original? of course not. saying this is like trying to justify changing DOFP from dystopian to utopian.


    But certainly the elements of Wanda losing control of her powers and sanity potentially can be explored. She's got her own show, so they've got the time and space to really flesh that out.
    We are talking about movies. the whole point is to try and do better right? how would that be possible when there will be unnecessary dumbing down rewrites?House of m could be a movie trilogy, they can even ask Claremont to be a consultant but disney would never take his advice anyway.
    Not to go off topic but I am not looking forward to any of those marvel disney+ shows. I think they will be too kid friendly and light hearted. Disney is too invested in it to give away creative freedom unlike the past marvel Netflix shows.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-08-2019 at 10:27 PM.

  6. #36
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    House of M was necessary because Marvel had painted themselves into a corner. During the Grant Morrison run Hank McCoy says that the number of mutants in the world is increasing so fast because of some genetic chain reaction that non-mutant humans will be a minority in just some years.

    This trend started with the morlocks. Before that, it was possible to learn the name of every mutants in the Marvel universe by heart. The same with non-mutants superhumans (at least in theory, considered how many they are).
    The morlocks were too numerous, so for 99.999% of them, we never see their face (or any other part of the body), learn their name, powers or anything. We just know they are there.
    After that, the numbers of mutants in the world continued to increase till it reached literally millions. Even if many died on the island of Genosha, there were still plenty of others elsewhere on the planet.

    There was simply too many mutants, so they needed to get the numbers down to a level where it was manageable. The problem was that also many already established mutants that had been in the comics for years also lost their powers.

    I remember from one of the Fox movies how one of the mutants, possibly Rogue, says; "there are so many of us" when she witness Xavier using Cerebro and all the hits lights up on a globe.

    Disney now has the chance to start all over from scratch by keeping the number of mutants low enough to that the House of M concept is never required. In the early days, mutants were outsiders of society partly because they were a rare breed, not because there was a mutant behind every bush and corner.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Thanks to Bendis and his ignoring her history Wanda's treatment in the comics was trash for many years and House of M should be ignored.

  8. #38
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    See I don't get this. Wanda lived to destroy her own race in House of m. she needs to decimate mutants.I know most of the mcu fans I know have said they don't read comics but you must have seen this iconic panel. it has many parodies.

    Attachment 89177


    Wanda bringing them together will be dumbing the story Disney style. its like that maleficent movie where she is the hero and not the villain from the classic animation, it makes no sense.it doesn't work. Also I think to do this will be to change the story in the opposite direction in a way that will be worse than Ragnarok. Ragnarok is a mythology so you can reimagine it, although for marvel, comedy and jokes was not the best route. house of m is an original marvel storyline with specifics, you cant reimagine or reverse it, if you do., you are not telling the story.

    Some of you were quick to jump on Claremont but would he be happy if an xmen story is reversed to something a lot fluffier than the original? of course not. saying this is like trying to justify changing DOFP from dystopian to utopian.




    We are talking about movies. the whole point is to try and do better right? how would that be possible when there will be unnecessary dumbing down rewrites?House of m could be a movie trilogy, they can even ask Claremont to be a consultant but disney would never take his advice anyway.
    Not to go off topic but I am not looking forward to any of those marvel disney+ shows. I think they will be too kid friendly and light hearted. Disney is too invested in it to give away creative freedom unlike the past marvel Netflix shows.
    The only way House of M even works is if it's in reverse. Mutants don't exist in the MCU, so decimating something that doesn't actually exist doens't make for much of a story. Whats needed in the MCU isn't a story to decimate mutants, but a strong to bring them into the MCU.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Claremont talks Avengers , MCU and X-Men. this is recent. published Nov 7.

    https://www.newsarama.com/47759-chri...than-ever.html


    Claremont: I think the whole point is, all the characters and the stories that Dave Cockrum and John Byrne and Paul Smith and I told, the surface and structure have barely been touched.

    The thing to bear in mind is, the whole current era of superhero films started with 2000’s X-Men, and that caught 20th Century Fox totally by surprise. They weren’t expecting a nine-figure opening weekend, that was unheard of for comic book movies. I would wager that set the stage for Spider-Man, and then Iron Man a couple years after that, and we all know what Iron Man led to.

    If there’s any group of characters that are ripe for more exploration, X-Men is it.
    Claremont: I’ll explain. The challenge with X-Men is, if you notice how Marvel produced the Avengers films, they set them in motion with solo films – Iron Man, Thor, Captain America – then you had them come together for Avengers. So the audience gradually fell in love with the characters and the world those characters inhabit over a series of stories.

    Hawkeye showed up in Thor. We barely saw him in the background, but he was there. Black Widow had a role in Iron Man 2. Kevin Feige was building and expanding the world piece by piece every step of the way. And with X-Men, that needs to happen as well – except it’s one single concept.

    You can’t really do a solo Cyclops movie, then a Storm movie, then a Nightcrawler movie and so forth. You have to find a way to bring Xavier’s school and the X-Men to the screen in a unified concept while also building the world piece-by-piece so the audience falls in love with it the same way.


    For me as a storyteller, the ideal way to do that would be following HBO’s lead with Game of Thrones,
    where you take 12 episodes – in other words, 12 issues – and you create the world and introduce the characters, and let the audience fall in love with them as you go along.

    My problem with both iterations of Dark Phoenix onscreen, the original by Brett Ratner and the newer version by Simon Kinberg, is, I don’t think you can do it effectively in 90 minutes. You can tell a good story in that timeframe, which I think Simon did, but it’s not the evocation of the story that Dave and John and Paul and I created, it doesn’t have the impact of knowing the characters and their dynamics and building to it conclusively in this narrative way.

    The challenge is, in terms of a canon like X-Men, it’s more like Harry Potter and Hogwarts, or Game of Thrones. It needs time and space to evolve and to bring the reader or viewer in and give them a result that’s worth the investment of that time.

    Claremont on the themes and villains.



    Nrama: In 2019, what do you see as the fundamental parts of the X-Men mythos that define the team for the modern age?
    Credit: J. Scott Campbell/Sabine Rich (Marvel Comics)

    Claremont: Heartbreakingly, as a concept it feels more necessary and relevant in the zeitgeist than ever.

    Not long ago I wrote a story focused on Magneto in which the United States, under the mutant control act, is gathering up mutant families and imprisoning them in New Mexico “for their own safety.” Kids are put in one facility, parents are put in another, and they’ll be held until such time as its determined whether they’re a threat to the country, and if they are, they’ll be dealt with in accordance with federal policy.

    And Magneto is talking about his own experiences as a younger man, gathered around people in a coffee shop who are all learning the news about the mutant control act – some saying “It’s about time, we’ve got to do something about these mutants.” Magneto goes out to the facility, he’s recognized as a mutant, they engage, and Magneto of course defeats them and dismantles the facility.

    But the point is, if one group can be dealt with in this way by government fiat, what’s to stop them from going after any other group?

    The thing with mutants is, they’ve always stood in for the disenfranchised and downtrodden. And no matter how hard they fight, how hard they work to live among humans, the humans always push back with new laws and new ways of hurting mutants.

    What I’m saying is, when we take steps forward, they’re not irreversible, unfortunately. So how do we address the people that are hurt by that? How do we address our fellow citizens who are caught in the middle?

    I don’t think there’s an easy answer, but it’s a question that I think needs to be raised. And for good or ill depending on the circumstances, X-Men is the place in comic books that question always seems to be asked.

    So again, Claremont himself has said xmen is not like avengers or the mcu stuff. he compared it to harry potter and game of thrones in story telling. he also stressed how the themes and mythos are so important in 2019. [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I doubt he will be happy with mcu formula comedy bestowed on his precious xmen from this interview. he is right about one thing though.

    harry Potter hogwarts=New mutants.

    main x-men = game of thrones.

    if you really get into the depth of their comics.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-09-2019 at 07:43 AM.

  10. #40
    Spectacular Member Banner's Avatar
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    If there's anything that's like Harry Potter and Hogwarts, it has to be (once again) Grant Morrison's run with the X-Men. There's even a campus where mutants sits around in the grass, reading and playing music.
    Personally I prefer New Mutants.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Thanks to Bendis and his ignoring her history Wanda's treatment in the comics was trash for many years and House of M should be ignored.
    Let me sum this up in a better way.

    Disney: We can't deal with house of m. it does not fit out light hearted comedy tone. its not fun.

    MCU fans = it is trash anyway, so it can be ignored

    Marvel fans = Disney please stop dumbing down or ignoring our heavier greyer complex stories.

    And that is why people like Scorsese has a great point about marvel.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The only way House of M even works is if it's in reverse. Mutants don't exist in the MCU, so decimating something that doesn't actually exist doens't make for much of a story. Whats needed in the MCU isn't a story to decimate mutants, but a strong to bring them into the MCU.
    Disney will make xmen movies forever, so that type of story has to show up at one point. mutant elimination is a core part of xmen's you can't escape it. Ironic, the last two xmen movies that took place in the main timeline. DOFP and Logan had stories of mutants decimation so even fox started to take notice that this was a main xmen theme and fox utilised it quite well.

    Once again, you see the signs clearly, that Disney would be worse than fox taking on xmen and Claremont would never support it. Claremont would never support the dumbing down of his stories.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 11-09-2019 at 09:26 PM.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Let me sum this up in a better way.

    Disney: We can't deal with house of m. it does not fit out light hearted comedy tone. its not fun.

    MCU fans = it is trash anyway, so it can be ignored

    Marvel fans = Disney please stop dumbing down or ignoring our heavier greyer complex stories.

    And that is why people like Scorsese has a great point about marvel.



    Disney will make xmen movies forever, so that type of story has to show up at one point. mutant elimination is a core part of xmen's you can't escape it. Ironic, the last two xmen movies that took place in the main timeline. DOFP and Logan had stories of mutants decimation so even fox started to take notice that this was a main xmen theme and fox utilised it quite well.

    Once again, you see the signs clearly, that Disney would be worse than fox taking on xmen and Claremont would never support it. Claremont would never support the dumbing down of his stories.
    Let me explain it to you Wanda knew about her kids since the 90's she got her memories back and dealt with them.

    Bendis ignored that to have her kill Avengers so he could bring in a new team then Marvel editorial used it to have her Decimate Mutants she became their favorite pawn to thin the herd when needed and it was garbage to do that to her character.

    I've read her Avengers Stories, her 60's Brotherhood Stories, West Coast Avengers, Both Vision and Scarlet Witch Mini Series, her 90's Mini Series, Force Works, Uncanny Avengers, and Young Avengers.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 11-12-2019 at 07:24 PM.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Let me explain it to you Wanda knew about her kids since the 90's she got her memories back and dealt with them.

    Bendis ignored that to have her kill Avengers so he could bring in a new team then Marvel editorial used it to have her Decimate Mutants she became their favorite pawn to thin the herd when needed and it was garbage to do that to her character.

    I've read her Avengers Stories, her 60's Brotherhood Stories, West Coast Avengers, Both Vision and Scarlet Witch Mini Series, her 90's Mini Series, Force Works, Uncanny Avengers, and Young Avengers.
    this is about Wanda in xmen stories. not Wanda in MCU movies or even avengers comics. X-men comics is not Disney child's play. never was, never will be. if it is now and, it will legion, if it is not legion it will be Illyana, it could Rogue. there are many mutants that can fill the spot on taking on a real movie about mental illness, something Claremont wrote a lot about.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 11-12-2019 at 07:24 PM.

  14. #44

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    Time to burn my copies of these films.
    TRUTH, JUSTICE, HOPE
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    Looks like I'll have to move past gameplay footage

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Beaddle;4678882]

    this is about Wanda in xmen stories. not Wanda in MCU movies or even avengers comics. X-men comics is not Disney child's play. never was, never will be. if it is now and, it will legion, if it is not legion it will be Illyana, it could Rogue. there are many mutants that can fill the spot on taking on a real movie about mental illness, something Claremont wrote a lot about.
    When was Wanda in a real story about mental illness?

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