How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Nigel909]

Success is the barometer we’re supposed to use? If I attempt to murder you but do not succeed, am I not a criminal/villain/evil?

That was a question not a moral judgement . I was not aware that had in fact happened in the comic books . I was seeking clarification.

[Tycon]

Genosha was absolutely used as an allegory for apartheid, but got actual apartheid wrong. Apartheid South Africa had the tiny minority of wealthy white people exploiting and oppressing the majority black population. Genosha had the majority population of regular humans exploiting and enslaving the tiny mutant minority. To quote Wikipedia as well, "Apartheid was characterised by an authoritarian political culture based on baasskap (or white supremacy), which ensured that South Africa was dominated politically, socially, and economically by the nation's minority white population."

And Apocalypse and Selene conquered and enslaved civilizations. Not all of humanity, though Apocalypse and Magneto absolutely tried. Selene is too lazy.

Where did these barometers of population size come into play? South Africa was controlled by a white government enforcing segregation just as Hodge and the police force on Genosha were oppressive humans controlling the mutant population.

[pkingdom]

Apartheid is an incredibly specific term for a very specific situation in history. Genosha was slavery, but not apartheid. The absolute power of the minority population was a key part of apartheid.

[Steel Inquisitor]

That was a question not a moral judgement . I was not aware that had in fact happened in the comic books . I was seeking clarification.

According to X-Force #11 (2009) Selene attempted to kill and absorb the souls of everyone in ancient Rome. When that failed she turned her co-conspirator, a Roman senator, into a vampire like creature, gave him immortality and spent centuries being tortured under her curse - he was buried alive for 700 years. This person has a say in the laws of Krakoa and is vital in monitoring Krakoa's homicidal urges.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yeah, wouldn’t be surprised if it was the human governments Magneto really had a problem with. He might speak as if he has a problem with humans as a whole, but there being human civilians that have genuinely showed concerned, and humans that have protested against them mainly due to the propaganda the government tells them, then that’s where any grudge Magneto may have truly lay. As it has been said before that with great power comes great responsibility, then if power is used irresponsibly, the it can tends to corrupt, which goes for those having influences of power such as corrupt politicians at governments, corrupt preachers at churches, corrupt leaders of anti-mutant protests, etc.

Exactly

Claremont´s run touched those themes with the God loves, man kills" graphic novel and X-men Classic when it was revealed Magneto used to work for an organization to capture and judge nazis but he was betrayed and bassically was told they would use mutants and their powers. At the same time the X-men had human allies like Stevie Hunter, who was a teacher at the Xavier school, Gabrielle Haller, Moira before the retcon, Lee Forrester, etc. I think Hickman is doing something similar in the sense of the X-men battling the institutions themselves but he needs to introduce more human allies to make the story more nuanced imo.

[Electricmastro]

Exactly

Claremont´s run touched those themes with the God loves, man kills" graphic novel and X-men Classic when it was revealed Magneto used to work for an organization to capture and judge nazis but he was betrayed and bassically was told they would use mutants and their powers. At the same time the X-men had human allies like Stevie Hunter, who was a teacher at the Xavier school, Gabrielle Haller, Moira before the retcon, Lee Forrester, etc. I think Hickman is doing something similar in the sense of the X-men battling the institutions themselves but he needs to introduce more human allies to make the story more nuanced imo.

Now that you mention it, I could realistically see Hickman eventually having many human civilians allying with the mutants on the basis of many human leaders having treated non-mutants like crap. I mean think about it, just as there have been many human leaders that have treated mutants like crap, humans have been treated like crap by human leaders just as well, if the real world is anything to go by anyway.

[Huntsman Spider]

Now that you mention, I could realistically see Hickman eventually having many human civilians allying with the mutants on the basis of many human leaders having treated non-mutants like crap. I mean think about it, just as there have been many human leaders that have treated mutants like crap, humans have been treated like crap by human leaders just as well, if the real world is anything to go by anyway.

Actually a good point. Anti-mutant demagoguery is just a smokescreen to obscure how the humans being told and taught to fear and despise mutants are at the same time being screwed over by the very authorities and institutions they count on to protect them, even though said authorities and institutions are really only protecting their own power and wealth and don't at all care what happens to humans that aren't part of the "power elite." Come to think of it, Bruce Banner made a similar point in Immortal Hulk explaining why he was intent on destroying human society --- because the government wasted billions that could have been spent on food and education and other means of bettering the lives of the masses on weapons to kill the Hulk. Krakoa should make the same argument to human society as a whole: "Is it worth hating and fearing mutants if the power elite profiting and gaining power from that ultimately has no more care for human lives than it's claimed mutants do?"

[Tycon]

Apartheid is an incredibly specific term for a very specific situation in history. Genosha was slavery, but not apartheid. The absolute power of the minority population was a key part of apartheid.

The entire continent was destabilized by trading companies and colonizers. Assuming the power came from just a minority population and not structural racism is a helluva revisionistic history.

[Lucyinthesky]

Now that you mention it, I could realistically see Hickman eventually having many human civilians allying with the mutants on the basis of many human leaders having treated non-mutants like crap. I mean think about it, just as there have been many human leaders that have treated mutants like crap, humans have been treated like crap by human leaders just as well, if the real world is anything to go by anyway.

Agreed, it would be a new way of tackling the X-men main mission of coexistence between human and mutants, one that also takes in consideration the nuances inside those two groups.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Actually a good point. Anti-mutant demagoguery is just a smokescreen to obscure how the humans being told and taught to fear and despise mutants are at the same time being screwed over by the very authorities and institutions they count on to protect them, even though said authorities and institutions are really only protecting their own power and wealth and don't at all care what happens to humans that aren't part of the "power elite." Come to think of it, Bruce Banner made a similar point in Immortal Hulk explaining why he was intent on destroying human society --- because the government wasted billions that could have been spent on food and education and other means of bettering the lives of the masses on weapons to kill the Hulk. Krakoa should make the same argument to human society as a whole: "Is it worth hating and fearing mutants if the power elite profiting and gaining power from that ultimately has no more care for human lives than it's claimed mutants do?"

That maybe true to an extent, but Hulk isn't the right person to make it. As a "good guy" he's known for destroying peoples lives when he has temper tantrums, whenever super-heroes try to calm him down or move him somewhere where he won't scare people the main thing he does is try to hurt or kill them and throws entire populations out of towns when he wants to be "alone" (the last is what happened in the PAD comics). When he's not a good guy we get incarnations like Joe Fixit, the Green Scar and the Maestro. Of course he wouldn't view it like this since he rarely given any thought to the people he's hurting - it's all about his pain and suffering. Self reflection and empathy really isn't his strong suit. I don't think we're supposed to be skiing with him given that he intended to destroy humanity, and the current version is more malicious then the Mindless Hulk who's more apathetic and childish than evil.

Its not Krakoa is offering a carrot here, it's doing the opposite to what Jean Grey was doing in X-men Red, that's why Magneto is the nation's face to world rather than her. People respect Jean, they fear Magneto because he's known for killing people.

[Zelena]

Its not Krakoa is offering a carrot here, it's doing the opposite to what Jean Grey was doing in X-men Red, that's why Magneto is the nation's face to world rather than her. People respect Jean, they fear Magneto because he's known for killing people.

Better being feared than looking for love? More or less what Machiavel said. But he wasn't talking about politics in a democracy. It shouldn't appeal us.

I think that it's not the people like Magneto, Apocalypse, Selene… that prevent humans to get along with the mutants. In a pacified world, any extremist, any mass murderer would be feared and prosecuted both by the humans and the mutants.

In my opinion, the problem is the regular mutants that have powers that the human society doesn't know how to deal with: the telepaths, the people that go through walls… Humans are afraid. Really, can you blame them? And any power dampener would be regarded as a mean to persecute mutants at this point.
I mean, police exists for regular humans. It's not that we think that every human is a potential criminal. But it's a essential element of our society. And if this element doesn't work with a part of the society…

So, there is this strange coalition between 'good people' and 'bad people' among mutants.
My main problem is that, realistically, it should raise more eyebrows than it does. And it shouldn't last, too.

[Agent Z]

Actually a good point. Anti-mutant demagoguery is just a smokescreen to obscure how the humans being told and taught to fear and despise mutants are at the same time being screwed over by the very authorities and institutions they count on to protect them, even though said authorities and institutions are really only protecting their own power and wealth and don't at all care what happens to humans that aren't part of the "power elite." Come to think of it, Bruce Banner made a similar point in Immortal Hulk explaining why he was intent on destroying human society --- because the government wasted billions that could have been spent on food and education and other means of bettering the lives of the masses on weapons to kill the Hulk. Krakoa should make the same argument to human society as a whole: "Is it worth hating and fearing mutants if the power elite profiting and gaining power from that ultimately has no more care for human lives than it's claimed mutants do?"

They would hardly need to create a smokescreen given the harm mutants, even the ones among the X-Men have caused. Politicians could be afraid a telepath could mind control a political them into spouting racist rhetoric they don't actually believe in to ruin their reputation and career, forcibly out a gay politician before they're ready to come out or erase everything they know about how to do their job in the first place. In a meeting with Emma Frost, she is not the one who has anything to worry about, the human does because they have no way to protect themselves from a telepath whose personal history has shown she cares nothing for boundaries and ethics (just ask Storm or Firestar).

[marhawkman]

Better being feared than looking for love? More or less what Machiavel said. But he wasn't talking about politics in a democracy. It shouldn't appeal us.

I think that it's not the people like Magneto, Apocalypse, Selene… that prevent humans to get along with the mutants. In a pacified world, any extremist, any mass murderer would be feared and prosecuted both by the humans and the mutants.

In my opinion, the problem is the regular mutants that have powers that the human society doesn't know how to deal with: the telepaths, the people that go through walls… Humans are afraid. Really, can you blame them? And any power dampener would be regarded as a mean to persecute mutants at this point.
I mean, police exists for regular humans. It's not that we think that every human is a potential criminal. But it's a essential element of our society. And if this element doesn't work with a part of the society…

So, there is this strange coalition between 'good people' and 'bad people' among mutants.
My main problem is that, realistically, it should raise more eyebrows than it does. And it shouldn't last, too.

But when viewed from that angle, Thor, Invisible Woman, Vision, Baron Mordo… it should apply equally.

[Nigel909]

Apartheid is an incredibly specific term for a very specific situation in history. Genosha was slavery, but not apartheid. The absolute power of the minority population was a key part of apartheid.

I've wasted a day of my life reading around this ,but I'm not allowed to leave my home so why not.
I've had no luck in finding a definitive statement on the relative numbers of humans to mutated on Genosha . Quickly scanning through the comics it could go either way , depending on which panel you look at . My overall impression is that mutated represent a large and largely hidden underclass , who could easily be a majority.

I think the term apartheid is not as specific as you think. The word itself is an the Afrikaans term for separateness or apartness.
According to the Intenational criminal court apartheid is "inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group of groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." No . mention of minority/ majority.

According to the UN , the term applies to racially based policies of any state.

States accused of apartheid include China ( it's treatment of Tibet), Israel and Saudi Arabia.

[Alan2099]

But when viewed from that angle, Thor, Invisible Woman, Vision, Baron Mordo… it should apply equally.

This is where you get caught up in labels.

For the people in the Marvel Universe, people with super powers usually fall into one category. Superheroes and Super Villains.
Outside of some really stupid stories like Civil War There's no reason to be against superheroes. They're here to help. They're Heroes.

Super Villains.... naturally you want to stop super villains. They're villains. But that's also what the heroes are for.


Mutants provide a problem because they're a third category. They're just people with powers and you know you can't trust people. People suck.