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  1. #916
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    That’s probably the clincher here. We can go back and forth all day long as to whether or not suspicions are justified in regards whether or not sleazy activity is happening behind the scenes at Krakoa, because again, there’s also the possibility that Hickman can always pull a 180 from under our noses when we least suspect it, despite what he and Magneto have publicly said, because he, the editors, and the rest at Marvel are the ones controlling the story and we’re not.

    Assuming Hickman is planning an ending finality to his Krakoa saga, and I’m sure we’ll certainly know when the ending comes, for better or for worse, then I suppose that’s when we’ll be able to confidently make our final opinions on the matter of how Hickman went about handling human/mutant relations.

    So then, in that case I suppose that’s the last I’ll say about that here so as to not keep going in redundant circles, and in any case, will attempt to enjoy X-Men stories as best I can, because at least as far as I’m concerned, X-Men stories are meant to be enjoyed and entertaining at the end of the day.

    Thanks.
    That's ALL that matters. That's the only thing that's important, the only questions that's relevant...Regardless it contradicts what came before or your personal ethos, are you enjoying what you're reading, is it entertaining?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  2. #917
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's great for Sinister, but why should we care what he thinks? He's the one who's stealing DNA without consent from other mutants. What do you think Thunderbird would think of this development? Personally, I don't think a Native America mutant would take kindly to that being done to his body.
    Sinister is villainous...ergo, he will do villainous things like steal DNA without consent. No surprise there.

    At best I can imagine Thunderbird would not care because...he's currently dead. And nothing was "done to his body" as the scan above shows, there probably wasn't much body from which to steal DNA.

    As a dead person, lying in a coffin...would you care if they bury you in a dress or a suit?

    Some things are not meant to be "over-thought" but...
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-19-2020 at 07:24 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  3. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Sinister is villainous...ergo, he will do villainous things like steal DNA without consent. No surprise there.

    At best I can imagine Thunderbird would not care because...he's currently dead. And nothing was "done to his body" as the scan above shows, there probably wasn't much body from which to steal DNA.

    As a dead person, lying in a coffin...would you care if they bury you in a dress or a suit?

    Some things are not meant to be "over-thought" but...
    There's layers to the disgusting behaviour Sinister exhibits here. The imagery of a eugenicist disrespecting the bodies of the dead, as well as the dignity of a Native American and an X-man. Given how Krakoa's resurrection works Thunderbird may be alive eventually, but the act shouldn't only be "bad" when he arrives. None of the X-men should be ok with this, especially Warpath.

    It's concerning how you're not being consistent with the racism and oppressed metaphors the X-men comics are representing. It may be a comic book but the ideas they examine are very real with these issues. This is something which shows how evil Sinister is, not be something which benefits him.

    Do you think what he did was wrong? Your response suggests it's not.

    Hickman's X-men is not one of them. It's perfectly in character for Sinister to do this, because of who he is, it's quite another to assume Hickman agrees with him. Sinister's defined by being an untrustworthy, dangerous, amoral, colonialist, eugenic mad scientist. We're supposed to hate what he does when he does things like this, even Magneto wouldn't stoop to this kind of disgusting behaviour and he's a remorseless super-villain terrorist in hs own right. Also, this is an X-men comic - we're not supposed to be cheering for the racists.

  4. #919
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Also, this is an X-men comic - we're not supposed to be cheering for the racists.
    Is it? Krakoa's foundation is race-based.
    Sinister and his likes fit well into the picture.
    It's the X-men and their behaviour that are the oddities… well, if you consider that they were before.

  5. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There's layers to the disgusting behaviour Sinister exhibits here. The imagery of a eugenicist disrespecting the bodies of the dead, as well as the dignity of a Native American and an X-man. Given how Krakoa's resurrection works Thunderbird may be alive eventually, but the act shouldn't only be "bad" when he arrives. None of the X-men should be ok with this, especially Warpath.

    It's concerning how you're not being consistent with the racism and oppressed metaphors the X-men comics are representing. It may be a comic book but the ideas they examine are very real with these issues. This is something which shows how evil Sinister is, not be something which benefits him.

    Do you think what he did was wrong? Your response suggests it's not.

    Hickman's X-men is not one of them. It's perfectly in character for Sinister to do this, because of who he is, it's quite another to assume Hickman agrees with him. Sinister's defined by being an untrustworthy, dangerous, amoral, colonialist, eugenic mad scientist. We're supposed to hate what he does when he does things like this, even Magneto wouldn't stoop to this kind of disgusting behaviour and he's a remorseless super-villain terrorist in hs own right. Also, this is an X-men comic - we're not supposed to be cheering for the racists.
    1:Sinister is a villain but siding with heroes (clearly, for his own purpose). Xavier can be a dictatorial ass but he's fighting to safe-guard mutants. Thank the Goddess there are layers to these characters...otherwise the writing would be terribly one-note, boring and bad.

    2: I don't work in the X-office at Marvel. It's not my job to be "consistent" with the themes of these stories. That's the "job" of the writer. All I have to do, as a reader, is enjoy them...or not. To your point though...racism in the real world, where I can actually do something about it, is of much more pressing concern to me than the malleable, fictional representations of transient comic book writers.

    3: What I think is irrelevant. Does HiX-Man care that I think Sinister's actions are wrong? Does Sinister care that I think what he did was wrong? No. And, No. To answer the real question: Under normal circumstances, No I wouldn't steal DNA from a dead body. But...if I was in the science/genetics field, and I had the means, the know-how, and the motivation, yes I would.

    4: As with any of my numerous favourite authors (not just of comic books), I assume absolutely nothing of HiX-Man. I don't care if HiX-Man agrees with him or not. We can objectively agree that Sinister is wrong while at the same time subjectively appreciate the pure villainy and intelligence that's under that fabulush cape. Speaking for myself only, I do love and appreciate a good villain. I love HiX-Man's Sinister (and I don't believe he even cares that TB was native American, the genetic material is all that's important, to him.)
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #921
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    That’s probably the clincher here. We can go back and forth all day long as to whether or not suspicions are justified in regards whether or not sleazy activity is happening behind the scenes at Krakoa, because again, there’s also the possibility that Hickman can always pull a 180 from under our noses when we least suspect it, despite what he and Magneto have publicly said, because he, the editors, and the rest at Marvel are the ones controlling the story and we’re not.

    Assuming Hickman is planning an ending finality to his Krakoa saga, and I’m sure we’ll certainly know when the ending comes, for better or for worse, then I suppose that’s when we’ll be able to confidently make our final opinions on the matter of how Hickman went about handling human/mutant relations.

    So then, in that case I suppose that’s the last I’ll say about that here so as to not keep going in redundant circles, and in any case, will attempt to enjoy X-Men stories as best I can, because at least as far as I’m concerned, X-Men stories are meant to be enjoyed and entertaining at the end of the day.

    Thanks.
    Great answer I agree completely
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  7. #922
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There's layers to the disgusting behaviour Sinister exhibits here. The imagery of a eugenicist disrespecting the bodies of the dead, as well as the dignity of a Native American and an X-man. Given how Krakoa's resurrection works Thunderbird may be alive eventually, but the act shouldn't only be "bad" when he arrives. None of the X-men should be ok with this, especially Warpath.

    It's concerning how you're not being consistent with the racism and oppressed metaphors the X-men comics are representing. It may be a comic book but the ideas they examine are very real with these issues. This is something which shows how evil Sinister is, not be something which benefits him.

    Do you think what he did was wrong? Your response suggests it's not.

    Hickman's X-men is not one of them. It's perfectly in character for Sinister to do this, because of who he is, it's quite another to assume Hickman agrees with him. Sinister's defined by being an untrustworthy, dangerous, amoral, colonialist, eugenic mad scientist. We're supposed to hate what he does when he does things like this, even Magneto wouldn't stoop to this kind of disgusting behaviour and he's a remorseless super-villain terrorist in hs own right. Also, this is an X-men comic - we're not supposed to be cheering for the racists.
    Xaveir and Magneto TOLD him to collect the DNA of mutants. Sinister is many thing but never been shown to be a colonialist. stop trying to make his Thunderbird DNA acquistion into something racial. It's not.
    No one is cheering for Sinister or calling him a hero But this is all very, very, rich coming from someone who defends a person involved in the genocide of a minority.
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Xaveir and Magneto TOLD him to collect the DNA of mutants. Sinister is many thing but never been shown to be a colonialist. stop trying to make his Thunderbird DNA acquistion into something racial. It's not.
    This isn't about him getting DNA samples, which we know he's done unethically because he's Sinister. He didn't get the same to resurrect Thunderbird, he injected his body with it to become a "mutant" for Krakoa because it's an ethno state for mutants only. They should have just let him in it's not like why he's there is is a big secret. It's an extremely racial act on Sinister's part, this is a man who committed a genocide of the Morlock's simply because he thought their genes were messed with by Dark Beast and he saw that as a professional affront. You think he cares about Native Americans? No. He's the last mutant to care about actual minorities. Sinister's a white male aristocrat who believes in eugenics, who started out as a disgraced scientist from Victorian Britain by kidnapping homeless people for the Marauders and using them as test subjects to experiment on. He takes what he wants, including bodies of other people without their consent and engages in mass genocide on more than one occasion. He even took over a town and made them all Sinister's with Sinister London and regressed it's culture back to the Victorian era!

    Magneto and Xavier being ok with what he did with Thunderbird's DNA sample would be very out of character for them.

    No one is cheering for Sinister or calling him a hero But this is all very, very, rich coming from someone who defends a person involved in the genocide of a minority.
    Sure they are, he's got numerous fans here. They may not say out loud but they don't hide it, either. He's held in higher esteem then Wanda Maximoff! Where her villainous deeds condemn her, while his are celebrated. Don't straw man by stance on Scarlet Witch, and the value being given to what she did is given higher weight then his genocides or any other X-men who committed terrible crimes. Sinister's even had his own M-Day and nobody cares. And don't forget Wanda is a minority herself, she's Romani. Didn't stop her getting brigaded worse then the entire X-villain community put together.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 05-20-2020 at 01:29 AM.

  9. #924
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Sure they are, he's got numerous fans here. They may not say out loud but they don't hide it, either. He's held in higher esteem then Wanda Maximoff! Where her villainous deeds condemn her, while his are celebrated. Don't straw man by stance on Scarlet Witch, and the value being given to what she did is given higher weight then his genocides or any other X-men who committed terrible crimes. Sinister's even had his own M-Day and nobody cares. And don't forget Wanda is a minority herself, she's Romani. Didn't stop her getting brigaded worse then the entire X-villain community put together.
    I really wonder if the feelings would have be the same if the X-men have treated Sinister and likes with less goodwill…
    I have the impression that the X-men have given a permission, a sort of 'experience of Milgram'…
    But, these X-men are not the same as before.

  10. #925
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    These clearly aren't our Grampaw Claremont's X-Men.

    Coming back to the OP...

    The "minority card" is thrown around rather conveniently as if it actually means something. Thunderbird being Native American, Storm being Black, Scarlet Witch being Romani only gives context and adds back-ground layers to these characters as one way of defining them as different from their peers so as to make the stories more interesting.

    But unless the story being written involves and speaks directly to the genocide of Native Americans or the enslavement of Blacks or the persecution of Romani, for examples...that race/ethnicity marker is really not that important. And it becomes even less relevant in the context of the X-Men when you consider that Mutants are made up of Black, White, Asian, Native American, Latinix, Indian and other minorities.

    Other than engendering diversity and to a lesser degree relatability, which are very important to the readership, you could mentally switch out the various ethnicities and it wouldn't change the stories being told. Yes, it would change some prominent characters like Storm or Danielle Moonstar, or Rahne ...whose origins are intrinsically tied to their development as individual characters but...MM, FotM, EA, EifE, these would all be the same because they are not constructed around individual race/ethnicity.

    Where-as, IRL...each race has its own definitive stories/mythologies, its own definitive history, its own definitive culture central to the life-stories being written whether on an individual level, a societal level or a global level.

    Hence, the concept of a Mutant Culture.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-20-2020 at 05:51 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #926
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    These clearly aren't our Grampaw Claremont's X-Men.

    Coming back to the OP...

    The "minority card" is thrown around rather conveniently as if it actually means something. Thunderbird being Native American, Storm being Black, Scarlet Witch being Romani only gives context and adds back-ground layers to these characters as one way of defining them as different from their peers so as to make the stories more interesting.

    But unless the story being written involves and speaks directly to the genocide of Native Americans or the enslavement of Blacks or the persecution of Romani, for examples...that race/ethnicity marker is really not that important. And it becomes even less relevant in the context of the X-Men when you consider that Mutants are made up of Black, White, Asian, Native American, Latinix, Indian and other minorities.

    Other than engendering diversity and to a lesser degree relatability, which are very important to the readership, you could mentally switch out the various ethnicities and it wouldn't change the stories being told. Yes, it would change some prominent characters like Storm or Danielle Moonstar, or Rahne ...whose origins are intrinsically tied to their development as individual characters but...MM, FotM, EA, EifE, these would all be the same because they are not constructed around individual race/ethnicity.

    Where-as, IRL...each race has its own definitive stories/mythologies, its own definitive history, its own definitive culture central to the life-stories being written whether on an individual level, a societal level or a global level.

    Hence, the concept of a Mutant Culture.
    Can You extrapolate on what you mean by The "minority card" is thrown around rather conveniently Can you point out an issue or story? But are you saying that the various races (cultures) of mutants are superseded by their mutant status?
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #927
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Can You extrapolate on what you mean by The "minority card" is thrown around rather conveniently Can you point out an issue or story? But are you saying that the various races (cultures) of mutants are superseded by their mutant status?
    I was indirectly referring to the readership notion that Sinister's acquisition of Thunderbird's DNA is race/racist motivated. Or that Wanda being Romani has any relevance to her being vilified for M-Day.

    I would say that Sinister chose TB's DNA because it is premium genetic material, nothing more...and consider, if he is that racist why inject himself with the genetic material of a mutant who would otherwise be considered physically or racially "inferior"?

    Not superseded by their Mutant Status, no, but...apart from definitive characters like Storm or Danielle, for example, who outwardly embrace and express their heritage/ethnicity on occasion, as written by Claremont to HiX-Man, Mutant Identity is what defines their place in the world, and even more so now for the majority of Krakoans.

    Simply put, in-comics...Storm is not hated because she's Black. She's hated because she's a Mutant.

    Where-as IRL...being Black, Asian, Native American, Romani defines how the rest of the world will see you and treat with you. You are hated, oppressed, disenfranchised because you are a "minority".
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-20-2020 at 07:09 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  13. #928
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This isn't about him getting DNA samples, which we know he's done unethically because he's Sinister. He didn't get the same to resurrect Thunderbird, he injected his body with it to become a "mutant" for Krakoa because it's an ethno state for mutants only.
    Uhhhh Dude....Xavier and Magneto encountered 'Mutant' Sinister on XMen Year 0 KraKoa was just beginning to form at XMen Year 10

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I was indirectly referring to the readership notion that Sinister's acquisition of Thunderbird's DNA is race/racist motivated. Or that Wanda being Romani has any relevance to her being vilified for M-Day.
    Ahhh Yeah thats what I was trying to get across...but sometimes I get blunt fingers...thank you lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I would say that Sinister chose TB's DNA because it is premium genetic material, nothing more...and consider, if he is that racist why inject himself with the genetic material of a mutant who would otherwise be considered physically or racially "inferior"?
    eXXXactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Not superseded by their Mutant Status, no, but...apart from definitive characters like Storm or Danielle, for example, who outwardly embrace and express their heritage/ethnicity on occasion, as written by Claremont to HiX-Man, Mutant Identity is what defines their place in the world, and even more so now for the majority of Krakoans.

    Simply put, in-comics...Storm is not hated because she's Black. She's hated because she's a Mutant.

    Where-as IRL...being Black, Asian, Native American, Romani defines how the rest of the world will see you and treat with you. You are hated, oppressed, disenfranchised because you are a "minority".
    Ahhhh Yeah I am totally in agreement/aware. I reeeeeally would like to see just one issue where this is explored. Like what it means to be a *insert minority race*+mutant. Even from the POV of a person who hates mutants, would llike to see them consider the race of said mutant. Or I guess the only good thing about mutant prejudice....it seems to be colorblind lol
    GrindrStone(D)

  14. #929
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I recently read a New Mutant issue #41 where Danielle is the focus. She's back home with her family and she encounters blatant racism on account of her Cheyenne heritage from someone who was a childhood friend...but his hatred was in large part due to misplaced feelings.

    So...it has been done.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Xaveir and Magneto TOLD him to collect the DNA of mutants. Sinister is many thing but never been shown to be a colonialist. stop trying to make his Thunderbird DNA acquistion into something racial. It's not.
    No one is cheering for Sinister or calling him a hero But this is all very, very, rich coming from someone who defends a person involved in the genocide of a minority.
    ...he’s a nineteenth century British aristocrat, he literally is a colonialist, lol and was literally an actual nazi.

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