Page 32 of 34 FirstFirst ... 2228293031323334 LastLast
Results 466 to 480 of 506
  1. #466
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    7,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    No one was talking about dealing with racism, its been a discussion of how “realistic” is the notion of mutant-racism in the MU that has celebrated and beloved non-mutant superheroes.

    Having an in-story racist make a distinction that they can love and admire a mutate (like Captain America or the Fantastic Four), a God (like Thor) or an AI (like Vision) while also discriminating against, disliking or even hating the dirty mutants isn’t unrealistic. Real world racists can split hairs exceptionally fine. Arguing that this is illogical is ignoring the inherent irrationality of racism.



    Sure you do, I unfortunately know several racists and more unfortunately I’m related to a few. I hear all the time some extraordinarily fine splitting of hairs. This is even more common when I hear some of the insane garbage directed at people who are LGBTQ. I once heard my aunt saying that she was fine with gays, but trans-gendered men in the womens bathroom are all perverts and a lot of them are molesters. (For the record that did not go over well, but still). Irrational people make irrational distinctions.

    Also just as an aside, there is one more thing that differentiates mutants from other superpowered groups in the MU (excluding Inhumans). Anyone can be one, and the fear that they will replace you. Mutants in the Marvel setting are referred to as the next stage of human evolution, people aren’t afraid of their powers so much as their scared about being supplanted. Mutates, Aliens, AI and gods aren’t generally portrayed as a potential successor and replacement to humanity. Thats the real underlying fear, thats the reason they are hated while others are embraced.
    AI may not necessarily be portrayed as humanity's successors and replacements in the Marvel Universe, although given the "Robot Revolution" currently playing out in Iron Man 2020 --- with AI lashing out at humanity due to being sick and tired of being abused and exploited by them --- that could very well change, at least in the sense that humans will fear AI as much as they already fear mutants. Funny enough in light of that, Powers of X depicts future humanity as so desperate to overcome mutants' natural genetic advantages that they integrate AI and technology thoroughly enough with their own bodies that they become a new, (perhaps) equally inhuman species in their own right. Fair bit of irony there, I think, but otherwise I do agree that the ultimate point of X-Men is that bigotry is indeed irrational.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #467
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    Beyond of "Is the narrative of the X-Men, they deal with prejudice so they need this" i just cant see the logic behind.

    The replacement argument feels weak, the vast majority of them resemble a baseline human which is very important, there is a reason why most mutants look like humans (the popular ones) and not flyhead, is more easy to us to identify with them but at the same time, that also can apply to their world, a world with aliens, demons and robots.

    You are going to be replaced for humans with superpowers, where is the fear ?? there is no clear distinction beyond what the writer is trying to forced upon us. Not only that, is a foregone conclusion, those replacements are your sons and daugthers, they didnt come from the moon.

    In a world with beloved superheroes, the opinion about mutants should be divisive at a minimum. Yet this ignorant humans are able to identify a mutate from a mutant. Even if we buy the replacement, the reason they are feared is because of the superpowers or they inhuman looking, some mutates are way more scarier than any regular mutant.
    The fear is that there will be an elite with super powers that will opress the rest of the world. The first introduction of the humanity to the mutants was someone saying that they would be the overlords while humans would be slaves. Later some fanatics like the purifiers came and the fear of a mutant blowing up you school when his powers are activate for first time.
    I would say that the fear of most goverments of the world always has been the rise of a group of people with power to rule over all humanity
    Last edited by hulkling; 01-28-2020 at 04:01 PM.

  3. #468
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    919

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Having an in-story racist make a distinction that they can love and admire a mutate (like Captain America or the Fantastic Four), a God (like Thor) or an AI (like Vision) while also discriminating against, disliking or even hating the dirty mutants isn’t unrealistic.
    I agree that there is a racism that is portrayed in MU comics towards mutants, a kind of racism that has something in common with the one that exists in our world.

    But added to that, there will always be the reality of mutant powers. Mutate heroes or "gods" (Thor, Captain America, Fantastic Four…) have a "official status" and are fighting to perpetuate an established order. Their powers are at the service of the common good. Why would people fear them? They are on their side.

    The X-men may save people of all origins, they still have an agenda. And now they even said it: helping the mutants to replace the humans. It sounds both vague and ominous.

    MU human's feelings towards mutants go beyond simple racism.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  4. #469
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    The fear is that there will be an elite with super powers that will opress the rest of the world. The first introduction of the humanity to the mutants was someone saying that they would be the overlords while humans would be slaves. Later some fanatics like the purifiers came and the fear of a mutant blowing up you school when his powers are activate for first time.
    I would say that the fear of most goverments of the world always has been the rise of a group of people with power to rule over all humanity
    Is a better take that the replacement thing, it would be perfect if it were applied to the rest of heroes, even mutants should feel that way, i mean, the disparity in the x-Gene is insane.

    Another thing that i miss is how little mutant politics we have because the SURVIVAL always bury any chance of speaking of something else.

  5. #470
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    7,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I agree that there is a racism that is portrayed in MU comics towards mutants, a kind of racism that has something in common with the one that exists in our world.

    But added to that, there will always be the reality of mutant powers. Mutate heroes or "gods" (Thor, Captain America, Fantastic Four…) have a "official status" and are fighting to perpetuate an established order. Their powers are at the service of the common good. Why would people fear them? They are on their side.

    The X-men may save people of all origins, they still have an agenda. And now they even said it: helping the mutants to replace the humans. It sounds both vague and ominous.

    MU human's feelings towards mutants go beyond simple racism.
    The agenda, such as it was, used to be working towards peaceful coexistence with baseline humans, which was then thought to be the best option for mutants to survive and thrive in an otherwise human-dominated world. It wasn't until constant violent, even genocidal rejections of mutants by humans that mutants as a whole gave up on that and focused purely on their own survival and advancement "by any means necessary," he same as any other people(s). Although, in all honesty, knowing that they would never be given fair hearing or consideration in human society, what incentive would they have to protect the so-called "common good" that was only "good" for protecting the very same humans who then went on to perpetrate or support their complete and utter extermination? To wit, the mutants may not be innocent, blameless, or saints, but humans as a whole have racked up a much higher body count in terms of mutant lives than mutants ever have of human lives, so whose agenda should we really be worried about here?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #471
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    771

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The agenda, such as it was, used to be working towards peaceful coexistence with baseline humans, which was then thought to be the best option for mutants to survive and thrive in an otherwise human-dominated world. It wasn't until constant violent, even genocidal rejections of mutants by humans that mutants as a whole gave up on that and focused purely on their own survival and advancement "by any means necessary," he same as any other people(s). Although, in all honesty, knowing that they would never be given fair hearing or consideration in human society, what incentive would they have to protect the so-called "common good" that was only "good" for protecting the very same humans who then went on to perpetrate or support their complete and utter extermination? To wit, the mutants may not be innocent, blameless, or saints, but humans as a whole have racked up a much higher body count in terms of mutant lives than mutants ever have of human lives, so whose agenda should we really be worried about here?
    Actually, on that note, how many genocide attempts have there actually been? More than just massacres, but those count too. We see a lot of the, but only vaguely. I actually almost laughed when they had that data page where they listed how many mutants deaths were attributed so certain groups, because most of them were really small. I don't think we've ever actually gotten anything like that list for number of humans killed by mutants as a whole. Wolverine's rage massacres, and Mystique's multiple terrorist attacks over a long life could be very large. That's not even getting into Apocalypse wiping out multiple civilizations.

    The three worst extinction-level events were M-Day, the Legacy Virus, and M-Pox. M-Day was the Scarlett Witch (a mutant, probably.) in a freak moment of madness; the Legacy Virus was Strife acting out of spite; and M-Pox was an unintentional side effect of the Inhumans, and when told the full scope of what was happening they helped stop it.

    They've been in 'survival whatever the costs' mode for so long that they justify anything. I still say its bad writing that they haven't gotten anything like a win, but it feels disingenuous to say that mutants don't give regular humans a reason to fear them.

  7. #472
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    There is no way that you can put fear to mutant powers in the same category with prejudice or "fear" towards black people, gay, muslims.

    You dont understand, a guy with a gun can be deal with, a guy with superpowers ?? with the nasty ones ?? telepathy ?? weather control ?? explosive powers ?? become whatever you want ?? Magnetism ?? reality warper??

    You are not automatically a bigot or an ingnorant for being scare of this things, because there is a legitimate fear.




    The degree of danger changes ALOT.
    Gay, black, white, muslim, the damage you can cause to society is similar.

    Again you cant compare being afraid of gay people with being afraid of superpowers, one is ridiculous the other is understable.



    Im not telling you that being afraid of Mutants is good but is normal if mutants were real, the fear towards them cant be dismissed so easily as bigotry.

    If you can break the laws of nature, why follow the laws of man ?? how many times have people abused their power in real life ?? if you are worried about mass shootings, imagine being able to teleport for example, or having mystique powers.

    Of course, there would be people who would use their powers for good but the possibility of someone abusing that power is scary.


    .
    I have told you a couple times now that rational people would treat "dangerous powers mutants" with proper level danger and mutants who aren't dangerous normally. You think it is about level of danger and legitness of the threat, No it is bigotry leading the fear to treat EVERYONE in that group like they are a threat. The fear of "Magento"(powerful mutant) or "Cyclops"( uncontrollable powers)is not the irrational part. It is treating Cypher, longneck,ugly john,Celia reyes, Nightcrawler, Maggot, Colossus, Angel, Beast, Darwin, Wolverine,Thunderbird,Kitty Pryde, Forge,marrow,Sage,Husk,Lifeguard, Mystique,Domino,etc all like they are they are one in the same is the issue.

    The level of danger doesn't matter, The majority has amazing ability to individualize when they are the ones with issue but generalize when it is everyone else. Let this coronavirus spread a little more and you will see some people justify being afraid of all Asian people because "the threat is legit" and since you don't know who has it you have to treat them all the same way. That is issue the threat can be legit, but bigotry and cowardice is what would make you treat everyone the same when you understand that you should be treating everyone individually.

    That is problem with Marvel we have those irrational fearing people treating mutants and superhuman differently which initial is fine BUT then we have those irrational hate fear people treating mutants like plague in a world with aliens invasions,god invasions,magic invasions, superhumans blowing building,etc. Real life has taught us those people would be quick to fear anything that doesn't look like them and the Marvel universe has had enough events where humans should be legit afraid of most superhero community because they make up most of the stuff that attack people. Skrulls attacked people but Hullking is walking around fine? Ultron attacked people but people are fine with Vision? Demons and magic events have happen and people are fine with Dr Strange and Scarlet Witch? Atlantis has attacked over and over and people are cool with Namorita? People of Asgard just finished attacking earth and people are cool with Thor and Valkyrie ? People are trying to sell us that irrational fear people who hate ALL mutants all of sudden isn't going to irrationally blanket fear stuff? People are trying to sell us that people in real life who see Sikh or Hindu man in a turban and would harass for being a Muslim are nuance enough to see difference between mutants and other superhumans. Superhumans can walk around comfortably when there is no real way of knowing who is a mutant and superhuman. And after 9/11 equivalent events in Marvel that superhumans just get a pass from the same people who irrational hate mutants.

  8. #473
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post

    The three worst extinction-level events were M-Day, the Legacy Virus, and M-Pox. M-Day was the Scarlett Witch (a mutant, probably.) in a freak moment of madness; the Legacy Virus was Strife acting out of spite; and M-Pox was an unintentional side effect of the Inhumans, and when told the full scope of what was happening they helped stop it.
    .
    Imagine after those three things, Humans then try to wipe you out with "a cure", Imagine after 16 million of you being wipe out, Countries are still using thing that wipe out and in space they were building a plant that was going to make a lot of them. Imagine when it look like they were only 198 of you they turned your home into a internment camp and put the thing that killed 16 million of you to "guard you". Why are people shocked by mutants posture to humans? Most governments in the world okayed Genocide of their race in the form of a cure.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-28-2020 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #474
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,458

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    Beyond of "Is the narrative of the X-Men, they deal with prejudice so they need this" i just cant see the logic behind.

    The replacement argument feels weak, the vast majority of them resemble a baseline human which is very important, there is a reason why most mutants look like humans (the popular ones) and not flyhead, is more easy to us to identify with them but at the same time, that also can apply to their world, a world with aliens, demons and robots.

    You will be replaced by humans with superpowers, where is the fear ?? there is no clear distinction beyond what the writer is trying to forced upon us. Not only that, is a foregone conclusion, those replacements are your sons and daugthers, they didnt come from the moon.

    In a world with beloved superheroes, the opinion about mutants should be divisive at a minimum. Yet this ignorant humans are able to identify a mutate from a mutant. Even if we buy the replacement, the reason they are feared is because of the superpowers or they inhuman looking, some mutates are way more scarier than any regular mutant.
    That's just wrong, and ignores the context of history. Fear of the "other" is one of the most enduring motives in humanity but is easily seen in US politics.

    People have never needed good logical reasons to discriminate, all thats ever been needed was demagogues and fear. This is made abundantly clear in US history as over and over and over again different groups were targeted, first by talented demagogues then increasingly by more and more common people. The point doesn't start with hate but fear, from alarm among natives (ironic name) that newcomers don’t share their values, don’t believe in democracy, and may harm innocent Americans. They stoke the fear that these dangerous aliens are going to take away from the hard working Americans, that they are a threat to their families and their legacies. All it ever took was a new group and someone to point the finger at them.

    pomu-10-2.jpg

    In the 1830's it was the Irish Catholics and dear god was there significant racism directed towards them by the mostly English descended white Anglo Saxon Protestants. English immigrants were fine Irish were not. This in turn led to a mass political movement the Nativist party or Know Nothings. Violence was frequent. Nativists convinced people that there was a vast conspiracy by the Pope (an opponent of liberty and democracy and the enemy of the railroad, the caucus, and the school) of subjugating the United States through a continuing mix of Catholics more obedient to Rome than Washington. This was still an issue when JFK was elected, people opposed him because he was Catholic.
    in the mid 1800's it was the Chinese...
    After 1880 it became Southern and Eastern Europeans (Italian, Greeks, and Russians) and the Irish largely joined in with the new nativist groups opposed to these new arrivals...
    Screen-Shot-2017-09-28-at-9.58.45-AM-646x430.jpg

    Then it became the central Europeans, Jews and Poles... A 1940 survey found that 17 percent of Americans considered Jews to be a “menace to America.”
    In the twentieth century it became fear of the communist... now they were here secretly among us, plotting to overthrow democracy and take your rights and freedoms. Take a good look at the various "Red Scares".

    America Menaced - cover pa.jpg

    Then the homosexuals...
    Then the Muslim...
    Then the Transgendered...

    In just about all of these cases the root case of the discrimination and violence was fear and the root cause of the fear was bullshit lies, and demagogues stirring up fear. Fear for your place and fear for your home. For people who've studied history or for people who've who's lived through it's like, racism, discrimination and intolerance in the X-Books isn't hard to understand, its depressingly easy.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 01-28-2020 at 05:47 PM.

  10. #475
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Imagine after those three things, Humans then try to wipe you out with "a cure", Imagine after 16 million of you being wipe out, Countries are still using thing that wipe out and in space they were building a plant that was going to make a lot of them. Imagine when it look like they were only 198 of you they turned your home into a internment camp and put the thing that killed 16 million of you to "guard you". Why are people shocked by mutants posture to humans? Most governments in the world okayed Genocide of their race in the form of a cure.
    the cure didnt wiped mutants just depower them. The conception of the cure as a bad think is one of the reasons why the X-men metaphor cant work. This isnt a "gay cure" that doesnt work , is a real cure that can transform a mass destrucction mutant or a self hurting mutant in a normal human. The fact that some mutants are so afraid of the cure makes them look like losers that have created their identity around their super power. Most characters out the X-world always repeat the idea that the powers doesnt make them heroes , that they are simply a tool.
    Last edited by hulkling; 01-28-2020 at 05:55 PM.

  11. #476
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I agree that there is a racism that is portrayed in MU comics towards mutants, a kind of racism that has something in common with the one that exists in our world.

    But added to that, there will always be the reality of mutant powers. Mutate heroes or "gods" (Thor, Captain America, Fantastic Four…) have a "official status" and are fighting to perpetuate an established order. Their powers are at the service of the common good. Why would people fear them? They are on their side.

    The X-men may save people of all origins, they still have an agenda. And now they even said it: helping the mutants to replace the humans. It sounds both vague and ominous.

    MU human's feelings towards mutants go beyond simple racism.
    Damn, this whole post but especially this line is dead on. The other heroes are either powered up humans, human creations, human-allied Gods or Aliens all working to maintain the world as we currently know it (the existing ethnic groups, countries, borders, etc...) in the face of alien/demonic/divine/mutant/cosmic/??? assaults. Even when they're seemingly publicly corrupted they redeem themselves in the eyes of the public. They typically do not work with their villains.

    A good example of the stark difference between all the other heroes on Earth and the X-Men was AvX's concept. The Phoenix Force, something feared and reviled in the cosmos, is intentionally brought to the Earth by the X-Men for the sake of restarting their species. A cosmic being that casually renders entire species extinct and destroys stars being summoned to the only home humans know in the Marvel Universe. Where each of those heroes has countless family and friends who'd be turned to ash by this unapologetic monstrosity if they let go unquestioned. Mutants were willing to endanger all Humans, all Deviants, all Atlanteans. All for the sake of bringing mutants back.

    It's that one line, that one difference makes a huge difference. Of course mutants like Emma or Exodus would be seethe with contempt at groups like the Avengers, they fight for a status quo that expressly denies them supremacy.

  12. #477
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    the cure didnt wiped mutants just depower them. .
    You look up what is call trying to wipe some culture away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Damn, this whole post but especially this line is dead on. The other heroes are either powered up humans, human creations, human-allied Gods or Aliens all working to maintain the world as we currently know it (the existing ethnic groups, countries, borders, etc...) in the face of alien/demonic/divine/mutant/cosmic/??? assaults. Even when they're seemingly publicly corrupted they redeem themselves in the eyes of the public. .
    .
    It is weird right mutants via x-men save the world multiple times, Have ton of them on Avengers and public perception never changes about them it is almost like cosmic force is keeping mutants from being liked.

    It is okay that Marvel doesn't follow rules of the real world, People don't have to bend over backwards to justify this stuff. Mutants brand has "hate and feared" lets not pretend internal logic isn't being bended to keep it that way.

  13. #478
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee91
    It is weird right mutants via x-men save the world multiple times, Have ton of them on Avengers and public perception never changes about them it is almost like cosmic force is keeping mutants from being liked.

    It is okay that Marvel doesn't follow rules of the real world, People don't have to bend over backwards to justify this stuff. Mutants brand has "hate and feared" lets not pretend internal logic isn't being bended to keep it that way.
    This is absolutely true. The fact that Storm has been on the Avengers, with the Fantastic Four, teamed up with Thor and is married to T'Challa (both an Avenger and Wakandan) but she isn't seen in a more positive light in-universe is ridiculous.

  14. #479
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You look up what is call trying to wipe some culture away.




    It is weird right mutants via x-men save the world multiple times, Have ton of them on Avengers and public perception never changes about them it is almost like cosmic force is keeping mutants from being liked.

    It is okay that Marvel doesn't follow rules of the real world, People don't have to bend over backwards to justify this stuff. Mutants brand has "hate and feared" lets not pretend internal logic isn't being bended to keep it that way.
    No one were denying them their mutant culture. Just their powers. Culture is literature , songs ,art , the history of a community. the power to destroy cities with your mind isnt culture, is a weapon.

    the fact in the same way that some mutants have been part of the avengers other mutants have been part of the Masters of evil, the church of new darkness, hydra and other evil organizations. And is not like the avengers have been so loved in the last decade.

    The conception of civilians loving the heroes is not so true now. Look how easily they are creating a law against teen heroes

  15. #480
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    7,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Damn, this whole post but especially this line is dead on. The other heroes are either powered up humans, human creations, human-allied Gods or Aliens all working to maintain the world as we currently know it (the existing ethnic groups, countries, borders, etc...) in the face of alien/demonic/divine/mutant/cosmic/??? assaults. Even when they're seemingly publicly corrupted they redeem themselves in the eyes of the public. They typically do not work with their villains.

    A good example of the stark difference between all the other heroes on Earth and the X-Men was AvX's concept. The Phoenix Force, something feared and reviled in the cosmos, is intentionally brought to the Earth by the X-Men for the sake of restarting their species. A cosmic being that casually renders entire species extinct and destroys stars being summoned to the only home humans know in the Marvel Universe. Where each of those heroes has countless family and friends who'd be turned to ash by this unapologetic monstrosity if they let go unquestioned. Mutants were willing to endanger all Humans, all Deviants, all Atlanteans. All for the sake of bringing mutants back.

    It's that one line, that one difference makes a huge difference. Of course mutants like Emma or Exodus would be seethe with contempt at groups like the Avengers, they fight for a status quo that expressly denies them supremacy.
    Acting as if Emma Frost or Exodus represent the vast majority of mutants is more or less the same as presuming, on the flipside, that William Stryker or the Trasks represent all humans. The problem, however, is that mutants like the X-Men spent years fighting against the likes of Emma and Exodus for the sake of protecting and someday being accepted by the very same humans that Emma and Exodus felt entitled to trample upon and crush underfoot. How were the X-Men repaid? Instead of looking to the X-Men as examples of the good mutants could do for human society on free, willing, and equal terms, humans almost uniformly lumped them in together with the very mutants that they fought, writing them all off as dangerous and evil and undeserving of mercy, compassion, or acknowledgement for their personhood, thereby justifying their wholesale destruction.

    If mutants are going to be targeted by humans for total annihilation regardless of whether they side with humans or "fight for their own kind," then they might as well join together as a unified force to repel those that would destroy them, like humans have become a unified collective against them. Frankly . . . if you're at the point of deciding that mutants are all evil and dangerous, anyway, then why not have the Avengers take them out? Why not tear off that final fig leaf and have mutants just go all out against the human race? No more of that subtle, insidious crap about manipulating and exploiting humans' own institutions against them; just go full-tilt war on humanity. Really prove them right.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •