How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Steel Inquisitor]

First of all let's agree on the version of the character that is being discussed. I'm talking about the character Claremont intended him to be. For that to address the Silver Age lunacy he went straightforward and made him literally mad then. Since his powers for various reason were used unchecked it altered his brain to the point where he did become a bugeyed madman. Silver Age Magneto is him not being in his right mind. Then after being deaged and reaged we witness a far more adequate character. And when he harms an innocent young mutant he gets a reality check that forces him to revisit his ways yet again. At his core, he isn't a bad man. And even when he got back to villainy again, I don't think he ever harmed an innocent on purpose. As collateral damage? Sure. But not in a sense a terrorist does to simply terrorize.

I'm talking about Magneto in general, he didn't stop being a monster in the Silver Age and even if he did that isn't an excuse to erase that part of his life. How anyone can look what he did in "Fatal Attractions and "Magneto War" and think he's simply misunderstood is beyond me. He openly harmed Wolverine by ripping out his adamantium in "Fatal Attractions" and he's routinely put X-men in the hospital when they get between him and a goal. At his core he's a monster, and only be editorial mandate he has been allowed to lead the X-men or be convicted of crimes that would be a death sentence for anyone in our world.

In the real world comparison this would be like saying bin Laden was right because America has done horrible things in the Middle East. This is a key argument terrorist groups how radicalise and indoctrinate followers. This is what magneto does, sprinkles just enough truth to hook mutants in then does something like threatening to reverse the Earth's magnetic poles if they don't adhere to his commands. Think about the destruction and lives lost in our Earth had he done this on our Earth.

Collateral damage isn't an excuse for any terrorism, they wouldn't harmed without those actions and would warrant tremendous response by a government who were attacked. We're talking about a man who routinely teams up with Sabretooth, with no restraints. That's how low the Brotherhood's standards are, which he founded.

We know Magneto as a character in a comic book, would you make these arguments with real people?

Also his philosophy towards humans has never been clear. On Genosha, he let humans be part of the Counsel. Every single lover of his, beside Rogue, was a human.

Magneto's never been shy about his beliefs, but there have been variances in how he enacts it when given power. In House of M he forbid any humans from ruling countries, and when Storm wanted to let T'Challa have more say in how to run Wakanda Magneto wanted to split them up. It's all in the link I gave. Bigots date races they don't like, Magneto's no different in that respect.

And just because it was hidden doesn't make it ok. The institutionalization and industrialization of mutant exploitation was already ongoing. So Magneto was right about how humans will treat mutants. Again, it's not like early SA Magneto was responding to it directly. But through retcons, developments of concepts and characters it does add up.

I didn't say it was. We're not disagreeing on the systemic racism against mutants in Marvel, we're discussing Magneto's methods and those mutant super-villains like him that the X-men fought, pre-Krakoa. Part of what makes Magneto an interesting character, post-claremont, is that he his argument does has merit however it's how he goes about his goals which are the problem. Silver Age Magneto was an active character, rarely on the defense. The retcons didn't make him any less of a monster, just gave him more depth.

What's mindbogling to me is that posts like this imply the X-men shouldn't have fought mutants like Magneto, it implies they should have joined them. That they're the villains, not the Brotherhood or the Marauders. We're not simply discussing Magneto himself, this is about every mutant like him in Krakoa who have attacked humanity and fought the X-men.

[BroHomo]

What's mindbogling to me is that posts like this imply the X-men shouldn't have fought mutants like Magneto, it implies they should have joined them. That they're the villains, not the Brotherhood or the Marauders. We're not simply discussing Magneto himself, this is about every mutant like him in Krakoa who have attacked humanity and fought the X-men.

It literally doesn't Even come close to making such an implication

[Namor'sWrath]

Lol the X-men already dealt with Sabretooth more reliably than the flatscan justice system ever could. Krakoan criminals should go through the Krakoan justice system.

[Steel Inquisitor]

It literally doesn't Even come close to making such an implication

There's barely implication. Saying Magneto Was Right signifies the X-men were wrong, that's why they fought. Krakoa itself is built on the assumption of this being true. That why Moira had to "break" Xavier.

[Namor'sWrath]

There's barely implication. Saying Magneto Was Right signifies the X-men were wrong, that's why they fought. Krakoa itself is built on the assumption of this being true. That why Moira had to "break" Xavier.

When Magneto was wrong they fought him, when he was right they didn't. Magneto has been proven right more often than not.

[Electricmastro]

Said this in another thread, but I felt it was also worth saying here that I suppose some could condemn me of being too ignorantly optimistic for thinking that future writers would be more willing to write human/mutant relations with more nuance, and fine, they have the free will to have that view after all, and I also have nothing against fans who are persistent in believing that life in the Marvel Universe will be extremely crappy for all mutants in human societies no matter what. Some others could perhaps be cynical and pessimistic to the point that Krakoa won’t be around for too long since, this being fiction, any writer could just write that away without being obligated to fans to give a decent explanation.

That said, I have to wonder, what exactly makes some fans persistent and so quickly ready to believe that life on Earth will always be extremely crappy for all mutants no matter what, and no matter how much time passes? And, considering the reflections to real life, could they possibly think similarly of real life minorities too? Wouldn’t thinking like that for long enough drive someone crazy? That life on Earth is said to be so hopeless and so terrible because of all the bad people to the point that life isn’t worth living on it anymore? This isn’t meant to downplay the hardships minorities have in real life of course, but in regards to whether life is worth living or not, well, that’s another story, isn’t it?

As for me, I recall series like Star Trek have taught me that it’s indeed possible for living beings of considerably different backgrounds, even living beings with special abilities, to work together as equals towards a greater good, in spite of all the past atrocities, in spite of all the past disagreements, and in spite of all the other bad things that have happened, are happening in the present, and may always happen in the future.

Again, if people want to come to have the opinion that my optimism is ignorant, then fine.

If my optimism makes me ignorant, no matter how academically, intelligently, and responsibly I attempt to approach it, then what does that make the fans that speak of the lives of mutants, and even real life minorities, as if life is too terrible to keep on living?

[adamTPTK]

I'm talking about Magneto in general, he didn't stop being a monster in the Silver Age and even if he did that isn't an excuse to erase that part of his life. How anyone can look what he did in "Fatal Attractions and "Magneto War" and think he's simply misunderstood is beyond me. He openly harmed Wolverine by ripping out his adamantium in "Fatal Attractions" and he's routinely put X-men in the hospital when they get between him and a goal. At his core he's a monster, and only be editorial mandate he has been allowed to lead the X-men or be convicted of crimes that would be a death sentence for anyone in our world.

In the real world comparison this would be like saying bin Laden was right because America has done horrible things in the Middle East. This is a key argument terrorist groups how radicalise and indoctrinate followers. This is what magneto does, sprinkles just enough truth to hook mutants in then does something like threatening to reverse the Earth's magnetic poles if they don't adhere to his commands. Think about the destruction and lives lost in our Earth had he done this on our Earth.

Collateral damage isn't an excuse for any terrorism, they wouldn't harmed without those actions and would warrant tremendous response by a government who were attacked. We're talking about a man who routinely teams up with Sabretooth, with no restraints. That's how low the Brotherhood's standards are, which he founded.

We know Magneto as a character in a comic book, would you make these arguments with real people?



Magneto's never been shy about his beliefs, but there have been variances in how he enacts it when given power. In House of M he forbid any humans from ruling countries, and when Storm wanted to let T'Challa have more say in how to run Wakanda Magneto wanted to split them up. It's all in the link I gave. Bigots date races they don't like, Magneto's no different in that respect.



I didn't say it was. We're not disagreeing on the systemic racism against mutants in Marvel, we're discussing Magneto's methods and those mutant super-villains like him that the X-men fought, pre-Krakoa. Part of what makes Magneto an interesting character, post-claremont, is that he his argument does has merit however it's how he goes about his goals which are the problem. Silver Age Magneto was an active character, rarely on the defense. The retcons didn't make him any less of a monster, just gave him more depth.

What's mindbogling to me is that posts like this imply the X-men shouldn't have fought mutants like Magneto, it implies they should have joined them. That they're the villains, not the Brotherhood or the Marauders. We're not simply discussing Magneto himself, this is about every mutant like him in Krakoa who have attacked humanity and fought the X-men.

You said thinking with an in universe logic, then let's go there.
1. Property damage means nothing in this universe, superheroes destroy everything around in simple disputes.
2. These humans witnessed mutants save them multiple times yet still found a way to blame them at the very same time.
3. Since you don't want to discuss nuance and complexity let's talk about all the time when other superheroes snapped and were responsible for deaths of untold numbers and then were accepted back like nothing because they are part of this world's elite which would be the superheroes.
I will provide multiple examples of all of this if needed.

In Fatal Attraction, Magneto released an EMP not on purpose to kill, but to repel the UN sanctioned Protocol that was meant to kill him. Wolverine tried to kill him too. And not for the first time.
In Magneto War the machine he used was used to extort only, proved by the fact that when the energies that could've decimated the life on Earth were released he contained them inside of himself which critically damaged his X-gene. If he was as bad as you so persistently imply, why even do that? Threats and leverage are part of geopolitical power gambles. Wasn't his invention.

Talking about editorial mandates, how about the one to regress him to villainy?

Collateral damage is the goal of terrorism, in a conventional war it's a tragic incident. Magneto never targeted civilians on purpose. At least not when he's in his right mind.

HoM is a different reality. In AoA he fought for humanity. And in other realities humanity has driven mutants to extinction. Actually, it happened in almost all of the possible futures.

Reed Richards collaborated with all of the FF villains including Doom. Crap, Valeria even lived with Doom. Remember how Tony Stark used Marvel's Suicide Squad to hunt down superheroes he deemed criminals? Magneto at least isn't as hypocritical.

His methods have always been far more moderate than some pretend. If he acted even half as vulgar as his detractors imply, entire countries would've been wiped out. It never happened.

Anyway, it's not to say he didn't have some extremely inadequate moments. These are still fictional silhouettes given shape by artists and writers. And most of them aren't even agreeing on how to write them. I'm saying is that when the character is at his best when he's a three dimensional, driven and complex fella. So complex he almost has all of them (survivor, messiah, victim, god, you name it) and that makes him so engaging. There people like you that are hellbent on denying him these layers and want to see only a one dimensional zealot. That's ok. But no need to pretend there isn't more to him. Claremont was able to craft too good of an origin to waste it on such tedious concept like "supervillain". He should be more than that. That's all I was discussing.

[anyajenkins]

but They did tho....
[IMG][/IMG]

...that panel proves that Russian Thug #1 had no idea what what he was or what happened and magneto didn’t know either. He didn’t even know the word mutant. Random thugs did not know about mutants in 40’s-50’s marvel time.

[BroHomo]

...that panel proves that Russian Thug #1 had no idea what what he was or what happened and magneto didn’t know either. He didn’t even know the word mutant. Random thugs did not know about mutants in 40’s-50’s marvel time.

i don't think anyone did

[Steel Inquisitor]

You said thinking with an in universe logic, then let's go there.
1. Property damage means nothing in this universe, superheroes destroy everything around in simple disputes.
2. These humans witnessed mutants save them multiple times yet still found a way to blame them at the very same time.
3. Since you don't want to discuss nuance and complexity let's talk about all the time when other superheroes snapped and were responsible for deaths of untold numbers and then were accepted back like nothing because they are part of this world's elite which would be the superheroes.
I will provide multiple examples of all of this if needed.

1. Wrong. Super-Heroes do that reluctantly, super-villains don't give a damn. Marvel won't go into the details since they only have x amount of pages and shy away from being too realistic (its why the Hulk miraculously hasn't accidentally killed anyone) but it does get bought up occasionally.
2. Don't generalise, there are far more things going on than that. It's not all of humanity who does this, PR will that is hurt by other mutants like Magneto so it become a wash, Magneto's not helping with his antics that all mutants are friendly. Bigots will latch onto bad things mutants do or lie to fulfil their agenda. Marvel's not going to not have mutants not be oppressed since the brand relies on that, and backing off on that narrative is an obstacle like this. Bigotry and racism is difficult to stamp out in the real world, it won't be solved because someone saved the world.
3. I'm fine with nuance and complicity, I simply don't like romanticing super-villains. You're right super-heroes have done that, sometimes they pay for it sometimes it's simply bad writing but it's not how they're supposed to be written which is why Marvel covertly lets it go when the heat gets too hot, see Iron Man. Magneto's been doing this since since the first issue, it's in character for him to be a villain. So of course people will more be inclined to call him out on it.

In Fatal Attraction, Magneto released an EMP not on purpose to kill, but to repel the UN sanctioned Protocol that was meant to kill him. Wolverine tried to kill him too. And not for the first time.

The only purpose of an EMP is to kill, he murdered hundred of people doing that. Warnings don't have bodycounts. Why shouldn't the UN have protocols in place for someone like Magneto? He's a terrorist and mass murderer.

In Magneto War the machine he used was used to extort only, proved by the fact that when the energies that could've decimated the life on Earth were released he contained them inside of himself which critically damaged his X-gene. If he was as bad as you so persistently imply, why even do that?

There were two Magneto's in "Magneto War" and the Magneto who tried to reverse poles didn't do that - that was Joseph, his amnesiac clone. They're two separate characters, like Nate Grey and Cable are.

Threats and leverage are part of geopolitical power gambles. Wasn't his invention.

He didn't make up terrorism, either, but he's ok using it too further his cause. The majority of his career he's not been the head of a state, he's stateless. He grooms himself as if he spoke for all mutant kind, when that's never been true. Zealots think they are the only voice for their people, and he's routinely tried to send the X-men to the morgue for stopping his schemes. He's bin Laden, not Donald Trump.

Talking about editorial mandates, how about the one to regress him to villainy?

When did you think he was a villain?

Collateral damage is the goal of terrorism, in a conventional war it's a tragic incident. Magneto never targeted civilians on purpose. At least not when he's in his right mind.

Magneto's targeted everyone, human and mutant alike in global strikes. And has been ok trying to harm any mutants who black his terrorism, like the X-men. If he's feeling generous he'll give the X-men a warning but when they don't comply lethal force is green lit against them. Collateral damage includes casualties and the man is responsible for massive death tolls.

HoM is a different reality. In AoA he fought for humanity. And in other realities humanity has driven mutants to extinction. Actually, it happened in almost all of the possible futures.

HoM is like AoA, it's tied closer to 616 than random alternate timelines. In time lines where Xavier dies Erik typically reforms and replaces him on the X-men, of course to do this everyone need to forget how bad he was and the X-men don't become bigger targets of the government, or outcast from the super-hero communities, since they let him be their new leader. And in some realities mutants like Apocalypse have driven mankind to the breaking point, humanity isn't the only race in Marvel capable of making dystopias. Because mutants have their own terrible people in their ranks who are just as bad.

Reed Richards collaborated with all of the FF villains including Doom. Crap, Valeria even lived with Doom. Remember how Tony Stark used Marvel's Suicide Squad to hunt down superheroes he deemed criminals? Magneto at least isn't as hypocritical.

The Fantastic Four's relationship with Doom is vastly more untrusting than the X-men are with Magneto. The Richards' have never been completely ok with Valeria doing that, and expect trouble from Doom more often than not. Read Waid's run during and after "Unthinkable." Iron Man was written out of character for that, Magneto's just being Magneto.

His methods have always been far more moderate than some pretend. If he acted even half as vulgar as his detractors imply, entire countries would've been wiped out. It never happened.

Extorting the world with death machines and having large body counts isn't "moderate" - he's only moderate when compared to people like Apocalypse. Magneto's the "nicer" alternative, but he's still a horrible person by a wide margin. It's a low bar to clear to have more savory methods than Mr. "Only the Strong Survive." Marvel won't let the implications of his philosophy become truly apparent, post Claremont, because it'd blur the lines between him and Apocalypse. And they know they need to make him sympathetic and ignore his past deeds or it'd be impossible for them to write him having redemptive story arcs every so often. Which only make sense if you ignore how bad he is, there's absolutely no reason Wolverine would be alright with Magneto giving him orders or being friendly after "Fatal Attractions." That's an unforgivable act which is conveniently not bought up.

Anyway, it's not to say he didn't have some extremely inadequate moments. These are still fictional silhouettes given shape by artists and writers. And most of them aren't even agreeing on how to write them. I'm saying is that when the character is at his best when he's a three dimensional, driven and complex fella. So complex he almost has all of them (survivor, messiah, victim, god, you name it) and that makes him so engaging. There people like you that are hellbent on denying him these layers and want to see only a one dimensional zealot. That's ok. But no need to pretend there isn't more to him. Claremont was able to craft too good of an origin to waste it on such tedious concept like "supervillain". He should be more than that. That's all I was discussing.

What moments are you saying are "inadequate"? I'm not denying Magneto anything, he's all of those things and a monster. The "good" monsters have depth, and are engaging and charismatic otherwise why would anyone follow them? They're still monsters. Claremont gave him more dimensions, he didn't erase the fact he's a terrible human being with blood on his hands a mile high. Despite all that he still did the horrible things in "Fatal Attractions" and "Magneto War."

[Zelena]

What moments are you saying are "inadequate"? I'm not denying Magneto anything, he's all of those things and a monster. The "good" monsters have depth, and are engaging and charismatic otherwise why would anyone follow them? They're still monsters. Claremont gave him more dimensions, he didn't erase the fact he's a terrible human being with blood on his hands a mile high. Despite all that he still did the horrible things in "Fatal Attractions" and "Magneto War."

Claremont really reformed Magneto, though…
In his stories, he became a 'good person', regretting his past. (My guess is that, as a good man, Claremont can't help humanizing everyone…)

Alas, it didn't stick… because most of the authors, post-Claremont, have been preferred him a 'villain not quite a villain' or a 'person in between good and evil' making him a person without clear moral.
I know it's fashion to call moral into question but I think he's less interesting this way, he has less depth and less consistency.
But I also think the so many faces of Magneto doesn't help to discuss about him as a character: you can't talk about evil actions in one part of 'life' thinking he has the same convictions he had in another part of his 'life'.

There are several Magnetos and, certainly, Magneto, the smug, arrogant, pompous bastard is not my favourite. 'The end justifies the means'? A villain tagline.

[Maestro 216]

i don't think anyone did

That's odd considering racism in the real world existed back in the 1800's.

[BroHomo]

That's odd considering racism in the real world existed back in the 1800's.

i meant mutant racism

[Electricmastro]

Honestly at this point Charles feels more like his Ultimate Universe counterpart. He's even more patronizing than he used to be. I know that you are right, and that's what that speech was supposed to mean, but having him say that flanked by Apocalypse and Magneto, who literally joked about ending civilizations minutes prior, makes the whole thing ring hollow. And his mission statement/temper tantrum in HoXPoX had him saying that their goal is no longer acceptance, but replacement.

Or, to put it bluntly, Magneto was right. Just instead of using war first, they start with subversion and subterfuge. According to Moira, war is inevitable, so they're preparing for that by consolidating mutant power in one place. Or at least that was my interpretation

I think I recall it being said elsewhere that while the real life Civil Rights Movement was about building bridges, what Hickman is having the mutants do isn’t so much building bridges, but replacement, and the possibility that any herbs or help the mutants give to the humans is just stalling before the humans wither themselves into widespread extinction.

Not sure how much I agree with that, but it’s an interesting opinion.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think I recall it being said elsewhere that while the real life Civil Rights Movement was about building bridges, what Hickman is having the mutants do isn’t so much building bridges, but replacement, and the possibility that any herbs or help the mutants give to the humans is just stalling before the humans wither themselves into widespread extinction.

Not sure how much I agree with that, but it’s an interesting opinion.

The X-Men tried for years to build bridges with (the rest of) humanity, but humanity refused to meet them halfway and justified its attempts at exterminating all mutants based on the crimes and misdeeds of a relative few. After the last run had mutants subjected to medical genocide as soon as the X-Men were assumed dead and gone, it's entirely reasonable at that point that mutantkind as a whole would look at the rest of humanity as a lost cause, incapable of overcoming its base fear and hatred toward them and thus a constant danger to their existence without extreme measures being taken to protect their right to exist. Enter Krakoa. Enter the miracle drugs being offered to humanity at the price of recognizing Krakoa as a legitimate nation-state. Enter the countermeasures against those in human society who would still deny and undermine their right to exist. It's a tragic, perhaps even appalling state of affairs, but to me, it's one humanity brought on itself by indulging its prejudices for so long.