How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Steel Inquisitor]

Oh look at you acknowledging that details matter! #growth. Do you want to start talking about villains on Krakoa without ignoring details, then?

Stop projecting. Do you want to admit that they are dangerous super-villains on the island rather than pretending they're misunderstood pranksters?

In-universe, Stark and Reed never face consequences, while the X-Men are pretty much hated regardless, and the superhero community is quick to go against them or throw them into prison. None of the Illuminati faced consequences about the Incursions stuff, except for maybe Namor (oh look at that, a mutant!). Nor did Reed or Stark face consequences for the Negative Zone prison or cloning Thor.

The Fantastic Four broke up. During Civil War Stark got into fist fights with numerous super-hero allies from Spider-man to Ms. Marvel, and was loathed by an entire group of Avengers - that was why its called "Civil War." Stark uploaded a virus to eliminate all the private details of the super-hero community from the Registration Act to stop Norman Osborn from getting it, was hunted by the government (who hired super-villains like the Hood) because they wanted the knowledge in his head since he burnt their database, he deliberately rebooted his mind which put him into a coma and made him lose his intelligence while he was on the run at the risk of his own life, and when he was fully rebooted it was from a pre-Civil War Stark. And he lost his company.

No a word of punishment for the X-men who are on the Illuminati, of course.

You want to go over what crimes the X-men have committed over the years and gotten away with?

You think Namor shouldn't have faced consequences for what he did to Wakanda?

Bad writing is a bad excuse, most of the stuff they do is consistent with their characterization. Stark, T'Challa and Reed pretty much think they're doing the right thing regardless and they never get punishement for their actions.

Bad writing is supposed to be acknowledged, not used as a straw man for acts they'd be celebrated for if they were mutants. Have you read most of their material, I don't think you're as up to date with their personalities as you're claiming.

You're either not getting my point or ignoring it. The FF are celebrities because they've saved the world many times, the same cannot be said about the X-Men even though they've saved the world many times too. If they do something right, they're still disliked. If they mess up, they face harsher consequences.

Your point was ridiculous, ignoring any nuance in the characters. The FF deliberately became celebrities, that's not an accident. The X-men had the opposite approach, staying in the shadows. Except you're only caring when the X-men save the world, you could care less when non-mutants do it.

Well look at Reed conversion-therapying Franklin. They might not be bigots, but they're going to put their interests first at the end of the day, regardless of the persecutions they see before their eyes.

He was making Franklin's x-gene invisible to being detected, not taking his powers away. Blame editorial for that, they don't have the luxury of being able to shape the world with their status quo like the X-men are doing right now. Strange, how this only comes up wth non-mutants but when mutants need help everyone who aren't appearing are made to look as bad as possible. The X-men really mustn't care whenever the Avengers fight Kang or Ultron by those standards. If the FF are so powerful why aren't the X-men or Krkaoa on their doorstep getting them involved? instead they steal from Reed and Stark and alienate them by pursuing Franklin by being the worst houseguests.

Oh c'mon, read your thousands of posts. You've been implying they're villains for a whole year. Don't backtrack now.

We were discussing the X-men, not Krakoa.

I hope you think the FF and the Avengers don't hold any moral high ground either, then.

If you want to discuss this complex subject I'm going to need more than a vague sentence.

X-Men had to train kids because they needed to learn how to use their powers in combat situation. No Purifiers attack the Baxter Building. Franklin and Valeria have been put into danger solely because the FF are addicted to adventure.

Because Xavier was ok sending them out to fight super-villains, and he'd use deadly training rooms, that's why it was named the "Danger Room". Which was unintentional, the X-men deliberately do that with their young students.

They even sent Valeria to live with Doom.

Stop minimising how much Valeria's relationship with Doom was terrifying them.

And yet only the X-Men are the bad guys or are seen as acting strange by the superhero community.

You haven't read many comics outside of the X-men line, have you?

[Veitha]

Stop projecting. Do you want to admit that they are dangerous super-villains on the island rather than pretending they're misunderstood pranksters?

I've never said Apocalypse and Sinister aren't villains. The villanous alliance has reasons behind it, but you don't want to listen and you only want to look for "details" when it comes to other heroes.

Don't "stop" me.

The Fantastic Four broke up. During Civil War Stark got into fist fights with numerous super-hero allies from Spider-man to Ms. Marvel, and was loathed by an entire group of Avengers - that was why its called "Civil War." Stark uploaded a virus to eliminate all the private details of the super-hero community from the Registration Act to stop Norman Osborn from getting it, was hunted by the government (who hired super-villains like the Hood) because they wanted the knowledge in his head since he burnt their database, he deliberately rebooted his mind which put him into a coma and made him lose his intelligence while he was on the run at the risk of his own life, and when he was fully rebooted it was from a pre-Civil War Stark. And he lost his company.

No a word of punishment for the X-men who are on the Illuminati, of course.

You want to go over what crimes the X-men have committed over the years and gotten away with?

You think Namor shouldn't have faced consequences for what he did to Wakanda?

None of that is punishment. That's villains taking over, life getting harsh and him making more mistakes and bad choices (him making a database was bad in the first place, he was just trying to fix his terrible mistakes). The X-Men were sent to prison after AvX and the P5 were persecuted by the Avengers. Stark and Reed did bad stuff without Phoenix Influence. Stark also created Sentinels, how about that. They ended up exactly like the Sol Hammer.

I was talking about Namor and Incursions btw, not the AvX stuff under Phoenix influence. Xavier was arguably the most humane of the Illuminati. Beast is a piece of ****, next news.

Bad writing is supposed to be acknowledged, not used as a straw man for acts they'd be celebrated for if they were mutants. Have you read most of their material, I don't think you're as up to date with their personalities as you're claiming.

You can't declare stuff bad writing so it fits your arguments. I have indeed read the material I'm talking about.

Your point was ridiculous, ignoring any nuance in the characters. The FF deliberately became celebrities, that's not an accident. The X-men had the opposite approach, staying in the shadows. Except you're only caring when the X-men save the world, you could care less when non-mutants do it.

You do realize that I was giving you a taste of your medicine? Most of your arguments about villains on Krakoa ignore context, reasons and details, but yet here you are defending the FF and asking me to take nuances into consideration.

The FF could become celebrities because they're white, straight and humans. The X-Men have done PR work and they've been costumed heroes in the past, but yet the world still hates them. Have you read any X-Men stuff outside of scans about Apocalypse?

He was making Franklin's x-gene invisible to being detected, not taking his powers away. Blame editorial for that, they don't have the luxury of being able to shape the world with their status quo like the X-men are doing right now.

Nope, he disabled his X-Gene so he couldn't go through the portal. That's still experimenting on your own kid without his consent.

Blaming editorial, blaming bad writing.

Strange, how this only comes up wth non-mutants but when mutants need help everyone who aren't appearing are made to look as bad as possible. The X-men really mustn't care whenever the Avengers fight Kang or Ultron by those standards. If the FF are so powerful why aren't the X-men or Krakoa on their doorstep getting them involved? instead they steal from Reed and Stark and alienate them by pursuing Franklin by being the worst houseguests.

You do realize that a crime done by a supervillain is different than a racial/hate crime towards a species or a minority? This is a weak argument. All heroes fight super villains, not all heroes come together to fight the same one, and some are government sanctioned and they do that as their job, but some heroes close an eye when their government kills some of their citizens belonging to a minority. It's been acknowledged on paper both in Civil War and AvX that human superheroes never cared or got involved in mutant issues, so it's not just mutant books that say that.

And the comment about asking the FF to get involved is fun when you see their reaction to Krakoa when they met Scott at the start of HoX. They're entitled and privilegied and you can see that from Sue's words to Scott. She was one hashtag away from saying all lives matter to Scott. Also, why would they need their help, Krakoa is doing good.

What does the steal line mean?

We were discussing the X-men, not Krakoa.

If you want to discuss this complex subject I'm going to need more than a vague sentence.

As if you haven't been impliying the X-men are villains because of Krakoa.

Because Xavier was ok sending them out to fight super-villains, and he'd use deadly training rooms, that's why it was named the "Danger Room". Which was unintentional, the X-men deliberately do that with their young students.

To prepare them for a world that hates and fears them. They also became an almost excting species and had Purifiers burn them alive. So yeah, good thing the students knew how to defend themselves.

Stop minimising how much Valeria's relationship with Doom was terrifying them.

Only a bad mother would sent a 5 years old to live with Doom. But Doom was also their teammate for a long while, maybe they're friends. You can be friends with villains and have them in your team when you're in the FF, I guess.

You haven't read many comics outside of the X-men line, have you?

Are you going to ask this again? You need to be condescending to make a point?

[Gav]

Yes, since across the Marvel Universe as a whole, mutants are no more dangerous to the general public than superhumans who gained their powers through other means or methods, and while mutants are the ones hyper-scrutinized, condemned, and demonized by humankind, even many of the more trusted and respected superheroes have proven to be potentially incredibly dangerous to the very humans they champion.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but don't a lot of flatscan superhumans get flak from the ordinary humans of the Marvel Universe too?

Yet no one seemed worried when Gold Balls went to Miles's school in Bendis's run.

Nor are they concerned with Moon Girl at her school.

True, but lets be honest here... The guy that summons eggs or the girl that switches bodies aren't anywhere near as dangerous as, say... Rogue, who can kill with a touch, or any character with psionic powers.

Also to some folks POC, LGBTQIA and others are dangerous.

See Trayvon Martin. Skittles and tea are so dangerous in black kids hands.

Meanwhile white kids who use schools as shooting galleries can be arrested without conflict.

True, but there's one key difference between the oppressed groups of the real world and mutantkind that you're missing:

Bigots only believe that people of color, or menbers of the LGBTQIA+ community, or folks from a different cultural background than them are dangerous. But mutants really are dangerous.

Now don't get me wrong, I condemn the hatred Marvel's humans have for mutants. But their fear of them, in my personal opinion, is completely justified once you give it some thought.

[Glio]

The thing is, most mutants don't have dangerous powers. The vast majority are actually people like Beak. Of course these are superhero comics so the narratives focus on those with skills that are interesting in fighting.

[Havok83]

The thing is, most mutants don't have dangerous powers. The vast majority are actually people like Beak. Of course these are superhero comics so the narratives focus on those with skills that are interesting in fighting.

Unfortunately all it takes is one dangerous mutant to screw it up for everyone. Magneto for example was known to the world as the leader of the Brotherood of EVIL Mutants and he sent an EMP pulse globally that killed numerous people. The potential for that type of danger is too big to ignore

[Glio]

Unfortunately all it takes is one dangerous mutant to screw it up for everyone. Magneto for example was known to the world as the leader of the Brotherood of EVIL Mutants and he sent an EMP pulse globally that killed numerous people. The potential for that type of danger is too big to ignore

People with PhDs also have lots of super-powerful people who have put the world in danger over and over again in 616, like Doctor Octopus. Should people with doctorates be discriminated against? Maybe if you're smart, a mob should burn your house down at Marvel.

[Havok83]

People with PhDs also have lots of super-powerful people who have put the world in danger over and over again in 616, like Doctor Octopus. Should people with doctorates be discriminated against? Maybe if you're smart, a mob should burn your house down at Marvel.

Thats a comparison that doesnt even work. A PhD is something you work towards and any flatscan has the capacity to get that. There are factors that can prohibit someone such as their resources, commitment or intellectual drive and curiousity but its still something can see out if they wanted to. Mutation is something a person is born with and gives them power that may put them in a position of power over others such that they can cause massive collateral damage. A PhD does not do that. Now if Doc Ock went around professing that was the leader of the Evil PhD Association and did heavy PR to equate to his power and destruction to his PhD, then that may shift things in terms of perception, even if it wasnt reasonable. The fact is that Magneto did not do a good job of helping early mutant/human relations and in fact set the foundation for the fear and hate that they face today

[Glio]

Thats a comparison that doesnt even work. A PhD is something you work towards and any flatscan has the capacity to get that. There are factors that can prohibit someone such as their resources, commitment or intellectual drive and curiousity but its still something can see out if they wanted to. Mutation is something a person is born with and gives them power that may put them in a position of power over others such that they can cause massive collateral damage. A PhD does not do that

Ok, just super intelligent people. Doom doesn't even have a real PhD. Should that "mutation", super-smart people, be feared and hated at Marvel? Even someone like Shocker is incredibly dangerous thanks to the gadgets he can create

[Havok83]

Ok, just super intelligent people. Doom doesn't even have a real PhD. Should that "mutation", super-smart people, be feared and hated at Marvel? Even someone like Shocker is incredibly dangerous thanks to the gadgets he can create

So someone like Reed, Tony Stark, Beast...yes I do think they should be feared, especially with some of the stuff they've created and how that has been used for evil

[Glio]

So someone like Reed, Tony Stark, Beast...yes I do think they should be feared, especially with some of the stuff they've created and how that has been used for evil

That's the point, you don't even need such smart people. Someone like Shocker, Stilt Man, or Prowler is already extremely dangerous compared to a normal human.

In fact, I'm pretty sure there are a lot more villains who are inventors or have empowered themselves with some invention like The Lizard or Jackal.

In that sense, being smart is a much bigger risk factor for society than a X-Gene. And much more difficult to detect.

[Zelena]

In that sense, being smart is a much bigger risk factor for society than a X-Gene. And much more difficult to detect.

I'm pretty sure that no one has ever been feared for his intelligence.
It's like saying Einstein had been a dangerous man.
People using smart people for nefarious purpose on the other hand…

[Glio]

I'm pretty sure that no one has ever been feared for his intelligence.
It's like saying Einstein had been a dangerous man.
People using smart people for nefarious purpose on the other hand…

Because in real life there are no people like Shocker who can easily make a device that can knock down a building. The equivalent of Einstein would be the ease with which Tony Stark can (and has made) weapons capable of destroying Earth.

[Huntsman Spider]

The main part of my argument is that Reed Richards has become a part of the society, he has seeked its approval, its confidence.
Xavier has tried to do the same but he has failed. Mutants aren't this way by accident or because they want it. They popped up randomly in the population. It's a phenomenon, a trend. It has changed the world. Humans are facing the unknown. It brings fear. It's more revolutionary than Reed's tribulations.

Behind Xavier, there's Magneto, Apocalypse, …
Behind Reed, there's no one. And no ideology… except the idea that science can solve everything… which is already a very widespread idea.

Xavier failed for one reason and one reason only, the same reason that Reed Richards succeeded --- privilege. When you're not from a feared, hated, and marginalized group, it's much easier, relatively speaking, to win the acceptance and approval of society. When you are from a group that society has done its utmost to marginalize, to subjugate, and to even outright destroy in its entirety, then achieving society's acceptance and approval is a lot more difficult, to say the least. The allowances and tolerance constantly given by society in-universe to the likes of Reed Richards (and Tony Stark, who has also been mentioned in this thread) do not exist for mutants, regardless of their wealth or any other markers of status, because those who control and dominate society see the very existence of mutants as a threat to their control and dominance and therefore will never allow mutants to achieve widespread acceptance or even tolerance by humanity at large . . . unless they're forced to do so. Much like in real life, "Power concedes nothing without a demand."

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but don't a lot of flatscan superhumans get flak from the ordinary humans of the Marvel Universe too?


True, but lets be honest here... The guy that summons eggs or the girl that switches bodies aren't anywhere near as dangerous as, say... Rogue, who can kill with a touch, or any character with psionic powers.



True, but there's one key difference between the oppressed groups of the real world and mutantkind that you're missing:

Bigots only believe that people of color, or menbers of the LGBTQIA+ community, or folks from a different cultural background than them are dangerous. But mutants really are dangerous.

Now don't get me wrong, I condemn the hatred Marvel's humans have for mutants. But their fear of them, in my personal opinion, is completely justified once you give it some thought.

Spider-Man and the Hulk, mainly. Spidey because he wears a full-body costume and has powers and a motif modeled after a creepy animal that a lot of people are afraid of in real life, Hulk because he's (usually) an uncontrollably angry and destructive green behemoth. Captain Marvel got a taste of that, too, when she was revealed to be half-Kree by birth, which was distorted by (some in) the media to accuse her of being an alien infiltrator all along.

[Sutekh]

Ok, just super intelligent people. Doom doesn't even have a real PhD. Should that "mutation", super-smart people, be feared and hated at Marvel? Even someone like Shocker is incredibly dangerous thanks to the gadgets he can create

Good grief. That's the kind of statement that gets a Doombot sent to your house.

[skyvolt2000]

Because in real life there are no people like Shocker who can easily make a device that can knock down a building. The equivalent of Einstein would be the ease with which Tony Stark can (and has made) weapons capable of destroying Earth.

Oklahoma might want to dispute that.

You have people who can make stuff that could cause some serious damage.

Think what a computer hacker can do.

But mutants really are dangerous.

Synch is a mutant that STILL got a beat down from bigots in Generation X.

All they saw was a black male and that was enough to attack him.

Never mind they SAW his teammates run past them. All wearing the SAME outfits.

They saw a BLACK MALE. Fear of mutants never played a part.