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  1. #976
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Mutants have powers that real minorities don't, but racists have giant robots, cyborgs, and space stations that thank God they don't really have, either.

    So...

  2. #977
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Mutants have powers that real minorities don't, but racists have giant robots, cyborgs, and space stations that thank God they don't really have, either.

    So...
    To me, that's an extension of the metaphorical representation. If minorities in real life had genetically innate superpowers that they could use to defend themselves against and retaliate for oppression, the institutions that perpetuate said oppression would just respond with an escalation of force via militarizing and weaponizing technology that they could deploy against those resisting oppression.
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  3. #978
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    To me, that's an extension of the metaphorical representation. If minorities in real life had genetically innate superpowers that they could use to defend themselves against and retaliate for oppression, the institutions that perpetuate said oppression would just respond with an escalation of force via militarizing and weaponizing technology that they could deploy against those resisting oppression.
    Or, the minorities would become the oppressors
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  4. #979
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I think anyone can become an oppresor when they abuse their power over others for their own benefit be it from a majority or a minority, being a minority by itself doesnīt make them an oppressed group, specially when some of those minorities gain power, for example the national socialist (nazi party) in germany were a political minority until they won the elections for chancellorship thanks in a big part to the Treaty of Versailles , an a majority can be oppressed by a minority like it happened during the appartheid on south africa on the other hand we also have the abuse over racial or ethnic minorities around the world a lot of times. Still I believe reality is so complex that you donīt exactly need to be a minority to be the subject of oppression, there have been whole countries oppressed by their goverment for decades even if their goverment is a minority compared to the rest of the population, they have the tools to use the force of the state and thatīs enough.

    Right now in the case of Krakoa yes we have some X-men with more power than they use but they donīt live in our world, they live in the MU world were most goverments have enough tencnology and super powered beings on their side to not only give a decent fight to the X-men but also to oppress or abuse to use the mutants born in their country, I donīt think itīs a perfect reflection of real life but itīs close enough for us to get the message. In this instance, krakoa is a mutant island itself and itīs populated mostly by mutants because they have chosen to live there and there has not been any kind of human oppression for them to develop their place because no human has lived on Krakoa before. Yes, the mutants are not a minority on Krakoa but this doesnīt mean they are not oppressed in other places of the world and the existence of Krakoa was a result of a highter level of persecution than the one the X-men were used before, at least thatīs how I see the story so far.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-30-2020 at 08:00 PM.
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  5. #980
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think anyone can become an oppresor when they abuse their power over others for their own benefit be it from a majority or a minority, being a minority by itself doesnīt make them an oppressed group, specially when some of those minorities gain power, for example the national socialist (nazi party) in germany were a political minority until they won the elections for chancellorship thanks in a big part to the Treaty of Versailles , an a majority can be oppressed by a minority like it happened during the appartheid on south africa on the other hand we also have the abuse over racial or ethnic minorities around the world a lot of times. Still I believe reality is so complex that you donīt exactly need to be a minority to be the subject of oppression, there have been whole countries oppressed by their goverment for decades even if their goverment is a minority compared to the rest of the population, they have the tools to use the force of the state and thatīs enough.

    Right now in the case of Krakoa yes we have some X-men with more power than they use but they donīt live in our world, they live in the MU world were most goverments have enough tencnology and super powered beings on their side to not only give a decent fight to the X-men but also to oppress or abuse to use the mutants born in their country, I donīt think itīs a perfect reflection of real life but itīs close enough for us to get the message. In this instance, krakoa is a mutant island itself and itīs populated mostly by mutants because they have chosen to live there and there has not been any kind of human oppression for them to develop their place because no human has lived on Krakoa before. Yes, the mutants are not a minority on Krakoa but this doesnīt mean they are not oppressed in other places of the world and the existence of Krakoa was a result of a highter level of persecution than the one the X-men were used before, at least thatīs how I see the story so far.
    I’ve observed that those that have more power, money, influence, etc. tend to have more of a final say in how societies are run and who tends to be burdened more with the hardships. For example, Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire, and it wasn’t until Christian Emperor Constantine the Great was elected as Emperor in 4th century AD that Christian persecution stopped as he was motivated to have more religious tolerance policies in place. In contrast, it was also Christians that were persecuting and killing Jews in the year 1096 during the Crusades in the Middle Ages. Also, although it was unfortunate that the Chinese suffered under concepts such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and Fu Manchu in America, how the Chinese leaders have treated black people and Muslim people in modern China shouldn’t be ignored either.

    And I’m sure similar idea can be seen with the X-Men in how they’ve gained a nation, life improving herbs, and considerable power in general to not only defend themselves with, but also potentially strongly spread their influence around the world if they really wanted to, even though previous writers had written them as a not as powerful minority stomped on by “apocalyptic torture porn” years earlier.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 05-30-2020 at 09:56 PM.

  6. #981
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I’ve observed that those that have more power, money, influence, etc. tend to have more of a final say in how societies are run and who tends to be burdened more with the hardships. For example, Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire, and it wasn’t until Christian Emperor Constantine the Great was elected as Emperor in 4th century AD that Christian persecution stopped as he was motivated to have more religious tolerance policies in place. In contrast, it was also Christians that were persecuting and killing Jews in the year 1096 during the Crusaders in the Middle Ages. Also, although it was unfortunate that the Chinese suffered under concepts such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and Fu Manchu in America, how the Chinese leaders have treated black people and Muslim people in China can’t be ignored either.
    Agreed, the problem is not being a majority or minority, the problem is how we use the little or great power we are given, we can do great or very bad things with it so we should be careful with it.

    And I’m sure similar idea can be seen with the X-Men in how they’ve gained a nation, life improving herbs, and considerable power in general to not only defend themselves with, but also potentially strongly spread their influence around the world if they really wanted to, even though previous writers had written them as a not as powerful minority stomped on by “apocalyptic torture porn” years earlier.

    Agreed, I think thatīs the interesting new take Hickman is taking with the X-men, like Xavier said "those people were never given a chance" what if they were given a chance to build something for themselves? He knows he didnīt have it as hard as other mutants, heīs always been aware this fact handed him a different perspective and let him believe or think that things could be different and thatīs the main reason for his fight, because in the end mutants and humans getting along is the best result to their problem but his wish canīt be made a reality when mutantīs are fighthing between each other to the death and most of the goverments are persecuting less powerful mutants to the point of extermination on a world wide level. Krakoa was a response to that thatīs why I think X-men dissasembled was a neccesary path to put the X-men in the mentality that they canīt in good conscience keep on doing things the same way when the violence has become greater than ever.

    The interesting thing is now that they have been given a chance what will they do? Now that they are responsible of their own future what will they do? I think the response will manifest itself with the different groups that are being formed in Krakoa right now and it will be more complex than symply them taking revenge or them becoming the oppressors, thatīs too simple a response imo but it all depends on what Hickman and the writers have planned
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-30-2020 at 09:16 PM.
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  7. #982
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Agreed, 100%
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  8. #983
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I think mutants as a metaphor for ethnic, religious, sexual, or even political minorities has long stopped being apropriate, but I think it might be really interesting to write them as a representation of various disabilities. Focus on the idea of mutation and evolution. How different bodies bring with them a difficulty in adjusting to the life dictated by most of society, with some barely suffering while others need constanr help from another human being. It could even argue that while there is a legitimate problem with people that are bound to a wheelchair technology is reaching new levels that make it so some disabilities might one day not even be noticable. And even then how much do you change what a person is if you "fix" a disability she has had since birth. This is both a social question and a science fiction quandry that reminds me of how you describe your first experience with the x-men, with the mutant master story. I don't know much you know about incel culture (I hope nothing at all) but it says something interesting about how people cope in unhealthy ways with their physical restrictions.

  9. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I’ve observed that those that have more power, money, influence, etc. tend to have more of a final say in how societies are run and who tends to be burdened more with the hardships. For example, Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire, and it wasn’t until Christian Emperor Constantine the Great was elected as Emperor in 4th century AD that Christian persecution stopped as he was motivated to have more religious tolerance policies in place. In contrast, it was also Christians that were persecuting and killing Jews in the year 1096 during the Crusades in the Middle Ages. Also, although it was unfortunate that the Chinese suffered under concepts such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and Fu Manchu in America, how the Chinese leaders have treated black people and Muslim people in modern China shouldn’t be ignored either.

    And I’m sure similar idea can be seen with the X-Men in how they’ve gained a nation, life improving herbs, and considerable power in general to not only defend themselves with, but also potentially strongly spread their influence around the world if they really wanted to, even though previous writers had written them as a not as powerful minority stomped on by “apocalyptic torture porn” years earlier.
    I think there is a fine line between a group that is considered a minority, and a group that is persecuted. Granted, it is easier for a minority group to be persecuted because of the group's lack of power.

    I think mutants can be a persecuted group without the minority metaphor. Fear of mutants can actually be justified, given the actual power at their disposal. And even before their display of power, mutations traditionally manifested during a traumatic event--- and sometimes to tragic consequences. The actual ability manifested is also unpredictable. Like, imagine a nice kid from your block is getting bullied, and then the kid's power suddenly manifested--- as an atomic bomb. Will you still choose to live in the same neighborhood if you knew the possibility of the event happening is there? And since the inciting, traumatic event can be as subjective as undergoing puberty, it makes sense that one would start fearing mutants, and that fear can turn to violence.

    Minority groups tend to suffer persecution because of a lack of understanding (shared with mutants) and/or because they are powerless (which isn't true for all mutants). I feel the better metaphor for mutants is gun violence and control. Like, is it therefore justified to own a gun when there's a legitimate threat to yours and your family's safety living next door?

    Imagine the idea behind The Killing Joke-- where all it takes is one really bad day to turn the average man into the Joker-- but now the dude has superpowers.
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  10. #985
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    I think mutants can be a persecuted group without the minority metaphor. Fear of mutants can actually be justified, given the actual power at their disposal. And even before their display of power, mutations traditionally manifested during a traumatic event--- and sometimes to tragic consequences. The actual ability manifested is also unpredictable. Like, imagine a nice kid from your block is getting bullied, and then the kid's power suddenly manifested--- as an atomic bomb. Will you still choose to live in the same neighborhood if you knew the possibility of the event happening is there? And since the inciting, traumatic event can be as subjective as undergoing puberty, it makes sense that one would start fearing mutants, and that fear can turn to violence.
    In real life, the level of paranoia would skyrocketing…

    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    Minority groups tend to suffer persecution because of a lack of understanding (shared with mutants) and/or because they are powerless (which isn't true for all mutants). I feel the better metaphor for mutants is gun violence and control. Like, is it therefore justified to own a gun when there's a legitimate threat to yours and your family's safety living next door?.
    And each mutant has a different power, hard to tell the difference with someone who has just a blue skin and someone who has a blue skin and some deadly power…
    And the mutants would try to hide their difference and that would increase the suspicion.
    Last edited by Zelena; 06-01-2020 at 03:58 AM.
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  11. #986
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    I think the only closest reflection to real life minorities would be the Morlocks but definitely not the X-Men.

  12. #987
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    I think the only closest reflection to real life minorities would be the Morlocks but definitely not the X-Men.
    Why? Within a minority there are always more and less privileged groups. The difference between Morlocks and X-Men is similar to white-passing in real minorities.

  13. #988
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Or...White Gays as compared to every other Gay.
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  14. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Why? Within a minority there are always more and less privileged groups. The difference between Morlocks and X-Men is similar to white-passing in real minorities.
    yeah this is why bishop was branded with an M to identify him as a mutant and sentinels exist along with other mutant detectors.

    The concept of "outing" thus exists.

  15. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I think mutants as a metaphor for ethnic, religious, sexual, or even political minorities has long stopped being apropriate, but I think it might be really interesting to write them as a representation of various disabilities. Focus on the idea of mutation and evolution. How different bodies bring with them a difficulty in adjusting to the life dictated by most of society, with some barely suffering while others need constanr help from another human being. It could even argue that while there is a legitimate problem with people that are bound to a wheelchair technology is reaching new levels that make it so some disabilities might one day not even be noticable. And even then how much do you change what a person is if you "fix" a disability she has had since birth. This is both a social question and a science fiction quandry that reminds me of how you describe your first experience with the x-men, with the mutant master story. I don't know much you know about incel culture (I hope nothing at all) but it says something interesting about how people cope in unhealthy ways with their physical restrictions.
    I've read some papers about the X-men as a disability metaphor.

    https://dsq-sds.org/article/view/862/1037

    https://repositorio.ufsc.br/bitstrea...102/319145.pdf

    Personally, Id also look to a "transgender" metaphor. For example, gender dysphoria is not innate to being trans, but many do struggle with it. Somepeople thus see being trans as a disease itself, others see being dysphoric as a fundamental part of being trans (truscum), however being trans is not a mental illness as accepted right now, though gender dysphoria is.

    Thus, there are many mutants who've had issues because of their powers, but at the same time it need not be the default, but a disorder unique to the otherwise normal mutants.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 06-01-2020 at 04:31 PM.

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