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  1. #1006
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Probably.
    But...
    The only "conceit" there is, exists in the minds of those who can ONLY see themselves in people who look like them and refuse to understand that underneath the skin we all are the same. We all are one. That is to say, the ratios don't need to be "50% White:50% Coloured" or "25% White:75% Coloured" for the ideology to have meaning.

    That just because we are differently coloured, abled, sexed, doesn't mean we cannot be representational and relatable to each other.
    The very notion of visual separation and distinction all for the sake of representation and diversity is why we will continue to look at each other as "Other" and not as "US".

    And before some of you jump in to misconstrue what I wrote, twisting it to suit your own view...check yourselves. (Nowhere, do I state that representation and diversity and visual presence, don't matter.)
    Good point about others not needing to look or be exactly like yourself in order to relate or look up to them, which isn’t to downplay the importance of diversity or representation. There are valid points to value representation/diversity, such as being ensured that businesses are willing to hire black people, reinforcing that there are good black people out there which can potentially lead to more non-blacks researching reality better, and the diversity of thought they could bring as well. That said, I’m sure there’s also a valid point to be had, which you touched on, in that people of different backgrounds can still look up to each other.

    A black person is capable of looking up to a Chinese, Japanese, or Native American person, just as much as a white person is just as capable of looking up to a black, Chinese, Japanese or Native American person.

    Conversely, black people who are straight, not disabled, or are of one religion are also capable of looking up to black people who are gay, disabled, or are of a different religion, I’m sure is reasonable to say, as well as there being a point to be had that gay black people are capable of looking up to gay white people. Or, in regards to a more general idea and going back to diversity of thought, people of different races can be inclined to look up to each other because they have the same/similar dreams, hopes, ambitions, etc. or simply because they like the same movies, shows, sports, etc. as well.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 06-02-2020 at 01:28 PM.

  2. #1007
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    on the flip to that despite what many on here post, a lot of minority led books/are seen as [insert minority] books...it's as if those books are preemptively thought of to only be read by [insert minority] readers.
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  3. #1008
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Why? Within a minority there are always more and less privileged groups. The difference between Morlocks and X-Men is similar to white-passing in real minorities.
    They don't even represent white passing within minorities. The X-Men live in a mansion, Xavier and Warren are the 1%. They attack other Mutants that they deem evil or ones that don't support their cause like with what happened with Blob. The X-Men act like the moral judges towards other minorities and attack them if they get out of line. If the X-Men were to represent a minority group they would represent the pick me's that try to get on the good side of their oppressors even if it means attacking their own people.
    Last edited by ComeOnBunny; 06-02-2020 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #1009
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Exactatiously.

    To "bring in real world"
    How many Black communities have turned their backs on their own Gay, Black brothers and sisters?

    Mutants will go to Krakoa because the community in which he/she was born and grew up. lived decided that they didn't want any mutants living among them.

    Claremont's ANAD X-Men and New Mutants categorically shows that not only White people become mutants.
    Yes and you say it would be true of real life. Alot of black countries dont really care for black Americans. Color is viewed differently in other parts of the world and you wont see the same solidarity. Its not uncommon for African countries to place more emphasis on culture and origin. Simply having the same color skin isnt going to mean you are automatically accepted

  5. #1010
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Good point about others not needing to look or be exactly like yourself in order to relate or look up to them, which isn’t to downplay the importance of diversity or representation. There are valid points to value representation/diversity, such as being ensured that businesses are willing to hire black people, and the diversity of thought they could bring as well. That said, I’m sure there’s also valid point to be had, which you touched on, in that people of different backgrounds can still look up to each other.

    A black person is capable of looking up to a Chinese, Japanese, or Native American person, just as much as a white person is just as capable of looking up to a black, Chinese, Japanese or Native American person.

    Conversely, black people who are straight, not disabled, or are of one religion are also capable of looking up to black people who are gay, disabled, or are of a different religion, I’m sure is reasonable to say, as well as there being a point to be had that gay black people can be capable of looking up to gay white people as well. Or, in regards to a more general idea and going back to diversity of thought, people of different races can be inclined to look up to each other because they have the same/similar dreams, hopes, ambitions, etc. or simply because they like the same movies, shows, sports, etc. as well.
    That a human being is able to relate to another human being despite of his differences, real or supposed, it seems logical to me. We have all a lot in common.
    This idea has been developped many times in X-books in the past.
    I don't think that Hickman's run is about that, though…
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  6. #1011
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Yes and you say it would be true of real life. Alot of black countries dont really care for black Americans. Color is viewed differently in other parts of the world and you wont see the same solidarity. Its not uncommon for African countries to place more emphasis on culture and origin. Simply having the same color skin isnt going to mean you are automatically accepted
    Agreed this often happens because there are other reasons besides color for why people separate themselves, like social status, nationality, etnicity, religion, culture etc those differences are not bad by themselves, the problem comes when it´s a problem for another group of people. The US situation is different to the situation on others parts of the world despite having some things in common, that´s why I think that while the X-men as a minority methaphor makes more sense in the US context they also can be a methaphor for the "other" in general When we as people separate ourselves in a negative way beacause we become the "other", the one who´s not part of the group whatever the reason may be for this but an attack or oppresion from a different group often ends in growing solidarity between people.

    For example the indigenous people in my country are part of 60 different communities with their own language and culture with ties that precede my country´s existence for hudreds of years and for a long time not all of them got along well which just made them more vulnerable as a minority group inside the country but lately they have formed a connection between their different leaderships and run their affairs in group and when it´s neccesary work with the rest of the people even if we are of mixed heritage, so each time there´s a problem with our goverment they use the legal means the constitution gives them to manage their affairs, it´s not perfect and there´s a lot still to do but the situation has been a little better than in the past.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-02-2020 at 02:40 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  7. #1012
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    Has it been discussed here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Cyclops vs Jean Grey would be likely successors, him for Magneto and her for Xavier. Storm would be great, too.



    This panels represents SO MUCH of the white supremacy being discussed as we speak and the avengers are being much conniving, if not denying, racism and police/government brutality in a really sharp analogy.

  8. #1013
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Has it been discussed here?



    This panels represents SO MUCH of the white supremacy being discussed as we speak and the avengers are being much conniving, if not denying, racism and police/government brutality in a really sharp analogy.
    Yeah, I thought that was one of the better points of Bendis's X-Men post-AvX, presenting the Avengers as defenders of a society where mutants could be left to the nonexistent mercy of bigoted humans, whether acting as individuals or as representatives of law enforcement or other governmental authorities, being at best oblivious to their relative privilege and the harm inflicted on mutants by those same humans they protected, or at worst unwilling (or unable) to challenge that privilege to stand up and protect those being victimized by human bigotry.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #1014
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, I thought that was one of the better points of Bendis's X-Men post-AvX, presenting the Avengers as defenders of a society where mutants could be left to the nonexistent mercy of bigoted humans, whether acting as individuals or as representatives of law enforcement or other governmental authorities, being at best oblivious to their relative privilege and the harm inflicted on mutants by those same humans they protected, or at worst unwilling (or unable) to challenge that privilege to stand up and protect those being victimized by human bigotry.
    The 'privilege' you talk about is just a human society that is not made for the mutants and the problems they could cause. In our world, nothing prevents all people to live in harmony but the mindset.
    Why this need to see the same situation in a context so different?
    There aren't so many books about our current problems?
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  10. #1015
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Cyclops vs Jean Grey would be likely successors, him for Magneto and her for Xavier. Storm would be great, too.



    “doing nothing”


  11. #1016
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    The 'privilege' you talk about is just a human society that is not made for the mutants and the problems they could cause. In our world, nothing prevents all people to live in harmony but the mindset.
    Why this need to see the same situation in a context so different?
    Uhhh whats stopping the 616 folks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    “doing nothing”

    Uh Im confused what this is supposed to show...that the Avengers put together a Publicity Team of Pretty white mutants + the pretender....guilty of genocide against mutants to to deal with the fallout of the P5??
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Thank you for your response. I've read a bit about how the metaphor for disabilities is already in place and while I do find some value in that I was advocating for mutants to become a direct representation of disabilties.

    As far as your proposal of the transgender experiences being used as the grounds for mutants, I think I should backtrack and explain why I don't think that works.

    Historically mutants have been a metaphor used for the struggle of minorities that couldn't be directly adressed in comics of the time. Thus the metaphor has changed gradually in accordance with what minority couldn't at the time be represented truthfully. Most of these issues came down to Civil Rights. The clear denial of fundamental rights based on a single aspect of a person's constitution. In the real world civil rights have been gradually expanded to the point where for the most part the type of issues each minority faces aren't about laws that directly target them but instead about repeated infractions by members of the legal institutions or other individuals. Black Lives Matter for exemple isn't about any laws that exist, it's about violations of those laws and informal targeting of a community. The only clear exception of this is probably south american immigrants. Those that oppose them do so on two legal fronts. First ilegal immigration. Some just oppose the ways in which individuals come into the United States regardless of the reasons. Second, some oppose them being allowed to immigrate regardless of how they do that because they have preconceived notions of what they bring to the table and think those give them less merit and less relevance. Mutants aren't a good metaphor for these issues because they arent' immigrants. They can be born at any time in any place.

    Transgender issues also have legal questions to them but they are mostly about proper representation in society i believe, aside from military service. You might ask why the level of discrimination determines if mutants can be used as a metaphor or not and I'd like to answer. General protection rights can in a way be represented by vague allegories because they rely on only one thing, acceptance that while others might be different from me they are still just as human as me. But this fundamental principal isn't enough when it comes to various social issues. Police targetting of african americans isn't about them having a different skin color that could be replaced with blue. After all, Indians, Middle easterns, and southeast asians also have clear facial features that distinguish them from caucasians. Police targetting is because there is a preconceived notion that there is a higher chance of an African Americna being prone to violent crime. There is a discussion about the statistical difference in how they are treated in court, and George Floyd might prove that some cops do punish them differently for different crimes, but history, culture, and the specific skin color are clearly necessary things to adress when debating this issue. Nightcrawler might be targetted for his skin color, but it's not the same thing as being a black character, specially since he could at the same time be middle eastern or indian. These issues are so specific that representation becomes crucial. Only Jessica Jones can talk about how women are victims of abuse. Only Kamala khan can talk about the muslim experience in the US. Only Luke Cage can talk about african american struggles and only storm can talk about the african immigrant struggle. Plus at this level the best way to counter discrimination becomes having people feel more comfortable with these individuals and that is the other side of why representation becomes necessary. Maybe Mystique could represent a transgender character, but doesn't the fact that she goes back and forth kind of ruin the metaphor? Plus her process of physical transformation is so simple even though part of the transgender struggle is the cost of the procedure.

    The reason why I say that disabled people are a good source for representation is that this classification refers to countless different struggles (that are as varied as the number of super powers the x-men have) but they can still be united under one banner. Plus the fact that they can be born to anyone in any place. Now, I'm not saying Angel can represent a deaf person's experince, I'm saying that a mutant that is born deaf because of the x-gene but gains super powers through it might have some value. This is a person that would still have issues in every day life but could also do amazing things both to help others and harm them. Plus the school becomes much more of a logical place with this factor since there is a reason why mutants would have to go to a school to train them for the outside world and it makes sense why adults would still return there a lot.
    While I brought it up, i was not speaking to make solely part of that metaphor. See the beauty of the mutant metaphor is that it can show various aspects of other sorts of bigotry in the world.

    It can be used racially, it can be used for the LGBT, it can be used with the disability in its challenges faced by the characters that echo the challegenges faced by the real people struggling with those particular issues.

    I don't think the mutants can, or even should embody just one metaphor.

  13. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Uhhh whats stopping the 616 folks?
    Editorial, bored writers, sales. The fact Marvel won't be solving racism or oppression in a comic book.

    Uh Im confused what this is supposed to show...that the Avengers put together a Publicity Team of Pretty white mutants + the pretender....guilty of genocide against mutants to to deal with the fallout of the P5??
    It's an attempt to seal the rift between the X-men/mutants and Avengers/everyone else. It's not like the X-men are above using pretty white mutants for their own agenda, like in Whedon's Astonishing or most X-men rosters who look more like supermodels than the oppressed.



    The X-men stopped having any moral high ground when they gave the architect of the Morlock Massacre a pass. Wanda knows what she did was wrong, he'd do it again. Wasn't too long ago Sinister tried to annihilate every single X-man in the "Marauders" storyline, including children from the New X-men class.

    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 06-08-2020 at 03:11 AM.

  14. #1019
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Uhhh whats stopping the 616 folks?



    Uh Im confused what this is supposed to show...that the Avengers put together a Publicity Team of Pretty white mutants + the pretender....guilty of genocide against mutants to to deal with the fallout of the P5??
    ^ this.

    Plus that team did nothing for the mutant cause if not making speeches. And prior to the AvX situation (which affected them directly) they showed no interest in mutant issues.

  15. #1020
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The X-men stopped having any moral high ground when they gave the architect of the Morlock Massacre a pass. Wanda knows what she did was wrong, he'd do it again. Wasn't too long Sinister tried to annihilate every single X-man in the "Marauders" storyline, including children from the New X-men class.
    I don't think the X-Men are interested in having any moral high ground.

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